Re: YEC and ID may be fellow brethren was -Re: [asa] Secularist

From: PvM <>
Date: Tue Jun 26 2007 - 12:55:13 EDT

An interesting point and I have been thinking about some of these
issues. Free speech versus the responsibilities of the government to
provide for education etc.
Typically, governments in Europe guarantee a uniform standard of
education across their country while providing moneys to any and all
religious school as long as they accept any and all student and
provide alternative classes when religion is being taught. I used to
go to a school where every morning classes started with a prayer
initiated by some of the teachers. That's the 'cost' of choosing to
join a catholic school run by monks which provided an excellent
personal education.

Although some of the monks were having a hard time to adjust and I
remember being singled out with a few of my fellow class mates as
examples of heathens. My parents got a good laugh out of this one and
until the teacher slapped a student for misplacing the location of
Rome, his position was not in questions.

In this country freedom of religion has caused religion to become
unneccesarily contentious rather than part of society. The same with
freedom of speech, while in principle laudable it leads to many
contentious issues.

Should schools be run by local authorities? I am not convinced, since
this would destroy any hopes of realizing a standard across the US for
education. And education surely seems to be one of the constitutional
tasks of the government.

But I share with you a certain level of apprehension about the
European Union's powers. Without understanding more about the EU, I
will have to come back later after I have spent some time studying
these issues.

On 6/26/07, David Opderbeck <> wrote:
> And to add a bit to what James says here, I don't think anyone should feel
> too good about how Europe is trying to handle ID and public education. I
> think the European Union is a good project generally, but it's important
> IMHO to note that it is in many ways fundamentally undemocratic. Most
> important legislation and regulation in the EU is imposed through the
> Council of the European Union based on recommendations by the European
> Commission -- neither of which are directly elected bodies. The only
> directly elected body, the European Parliament, has a very limited role in
> law making, and usually only functions in an advisory capacity. The result
> of this is that a concentrated, central, unaccountable body could dictate
> how local schools handle the teaching of origins throughout the EU.
> The American model of public education, which stresses local control by
> elected local school boards, obviously has its flaws. As we've seen local
> school boards can adopt dumb or even disingenuous policies concerning
> science curricula. But, at least local school boards are directly
> accountable to the public. And, even though our establishment clause
> jurisprudence is messed up, at least we have some constitutional free speech
> and free exercise of religion guarantees that impose some limits on school
> boards and other government bodies concerning public education.
> On 6/26/07, James Mahaffy <> wrote:
> > Pim,
> >
> > Really it is responses like this that make me wonder how deep your faith
> commitment is and
> > if you really can feel a bond in Christ to fellow Christians who take
> stands you disagree with.
> >
> > For pity's sake the article Janice cites starts talking about a Lutheran
> pastor jailed because he compared abortion with
> > the holocaust. While comparing it to the holocaust is inflamentory, many
> Christians myself included would see
> > abortion as taking the life of unborn people and something abhorrent in
> the sight of God.
> >
> > And I again resent your making general labels that do not fit all
> Creationists or ID. I am a Creationists (not a young earth variety but so
> what) and know and appreciate some ID people and don't need to ALWAYS hear
> you pick on them. As you well know they are not all of the same stripe.
> You are not enabling communication with brethren some of whom might be
> helped by ASA but I would hesitate to have them post hear because of the way
> some slam them.
> > --
> >
> > James Mahaffy ( Phone: 712 722-6279
> > 498 4th Ave NE
> > Biology Department
> FAX : 712 722-1198
> > Dordt College, Sioux Center IA 51250-1697
> >
> > >>> On 6/25/2007 at 11:12 PM, in message
> > <>, PvM <
> > wrote:
> > > A bit misleading. Europe silences creationists in education. I am sure
> > > that the nuance may have been lost on our dear friend and sister
> > > Janice :-)
> > >
> > > I find it encouraging that Europe takes a clear stance on creationism
> > > and public education. In addition, Europe seems to have correctly
> > > classified Intelligent Design as a form of creationism. So nothing
> > > really much about silencing creationists.
> > >
> > > On 6/25/07, Janice Matchett <> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Back in town for a short stint - so will take a few minutes to post a
> few
> > >> items of interest to some, I'm sure. :)
> > >>
> > >> [1] Secularist Europe Silences ... Creationists
> > >
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> >
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Received on Tue Jun 26 12:55:43 2007

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