Re: [asa] Altruism and ID

From: Iain Strachan <>
Date: Fri Jun 15 2007 - 19:32:33 EDT


I heartily endorse your post. It says very eloquently what I have been
saying on this list for a long time.

I have personal friends who are creationists, and ID supporters. I was
aligned in turn to both camps before deciding that I couldn't accept what
they were saying. These people remain my brothers and sisters in Christ,
even if sometimes their arguments exasperate me.

To be told what I already know, that their ideas are "scientifically
vacuous" doesn't help. As Christians we should try and treat our brothers
and sisters with respect, not repeat ad nauseam derogatory statements,
however true they may be. Pim is preaching to the choir by repeating this
mantra as if every time he says it, that it will achieve something. It will
achieve absolutely nothing, because those of us who agree will not be
affected, and those who aren't in the same choir will simply be antagonized
and insulted.

And since it's my friends who are being dissed by insulting language like
"Duh" and "scientifically vacuous", then I'm insulted by it as well. It's
time to give this sort of thing a rest.


On 6/16/07, <> wrote:
> Gregory Arago wrote:
> It is insulting to have a physics/oceanographer accusing me of making
> things up. Perhaps greater respect could be expected here than at Panda's
> Thumb or other merely-debate forums on the internet. The dialogue here is
> rather more deserving than resort to character smudges. If I am guilty of
> misdemeanors then I should happily be warned, reprimanded or counseled too.
> I have not been able to follow this discussion closely. However,
> being both a musician and a scientist, I have lived in both
> worlds, and, as I started as a musician before I turned to science
> (physics), I know that end of it as well.
> Watching this exchange while before our eyes, a creationist museum
> has opened and hearing 46% of the population believes the earth
> is 6000 years old, reminds me of exactly why this is happening.
> It is because may lay people who have not invested a significant part
> of their life on science feel that we are a band of arrogant pricks
> who think so highly of ourselves and can only condescend to the
> low and regular people.
> Lay people are not stupid. Neither are creationists. Many in fact
> are very polite, humble and very committed to the cause of Christ at
> a personal level. Of course, there is the "Socrates" types that
> really catch our ire, but comparatively, most creationist fit
> the former rather than the latter. These type of people are
> hardly insulting and arrogant, even if they are quite wrong on
> what they believe.
> When the people in the pews compare the general demeanor of
> such brothers, they look at these things. Christ did not
> come to the Jews with a club in his hand, he came as a pauper:
> humble and without the trappings of display. He was also
> abused by all and doubted.
> We are always more tuned to what is wrong with people that we
> disagree with, so those of us who have views of TE ought to keep
> that in mind when we open our mouth.
> Now when lay Christians come to this list and they read us physics
> folk writing "duh" and so forth, and I turn back to those days when
> I was a musician and think of why I would not ever even think to
> do science, I think I understand exactly why lay people don't think
> highly of scientists.
> We should take some care to consider that this is a diverse list, that
> not everybody is a trained and practicing physicist, biologist or
> whatever, not everybody is accustomed to debating things the way
> mathematicians or physicist might do, and we should take care to watch
> our language. As I understand it, one of the reasons all these articles
> about how there are no women in science and engineering all comes done
> to exactly this point; they don't feel welcome! Do lay people feel
> welcome
> here? If we really want ASA to become an important voice for science and
> faith, maybe we should take a good look at the ugliness in ourselves
> first.
> by Grace we proceed,
> Wayne

After the game, the King and the pawn go back in the same box.
- Italian Proverb
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Received on Fri Jun 15 19:32:49 2007

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