Re: [asa] Altruism and ID

From: Gregory Arago <>
Date: Mon Jun 11 2007 - 22:59:22 EDT

Please reveal to me, Jack: how it can be that "ideas, philosophies, and spiritual experiences (that) do not arise from biological evolution?"
  After a couple of comments in this thread, it is not altogether clear that outright biologistic reductionism isn't being applied, supposedly in the name of TE. I see outright contradiction in the last two messages you've posted on this thread and see no way to reconcile them. I'd be happy for you to clear it up for me.
  For example, you write: "Altruism has evolved through biological evolution. That is to say through random variation and natural selection. What you don't understand is that yes, the gene is the focus of evolution. If a gene improves survivability it gets passed on..."
  This is why I asked Pim plainly, directly, openly and clearly, two, what was it three times: "Please give me some evidence that a concept is a biological entity. If a concept is not a biological entity, then I will be pleased for you to just admit that, instead of dodging once again."
  Notice please that he simply WILL NOT answer this question. Please explain to me why!?
  Concepts are not biological entites!!! Biology (or biologiacl approaches) simply doesn't apply and you thereby must invite other scholars into dialogue who can speak with knowledge that you simply don't have! This has gotten to a point of utter frustration with the ASA list; a seeming inability to get outside of 'normal science' boxes that are contraining views that go beyond mere natural science!
  It is simply wrong, your suggestion that "altruism has evolved through biological evolution." If you want to speak about 'behaviours' evolving, then we are on somewhat different ground, in the realm of physical sciences, and somewhere that socio-biologists/evolutionary psychologists have preferred to tread and where scientifically-minded Christians don't seem to spend much time.
  I note however, that you just wanted to talk about 'biological evolution' and not about the variety of other types of evolution. I refused these conditions for discussion. Please excuse that I am not educated in the bounded territory of biological science. Leave the experts, E.O. Wilson, Robert Trivers, J.M. Smith, R. Dawkins and other ethnologists, rather un-Christian academics, to guide you if you choose to continue this line - 'altruism evolves through biological evolution'.
  Let's watch, ASA, how often PvM quotes articles from the newly discovered Edge site (, Third Culture ("rendering visible the deeper meanings of our lives, redefining who and what we are."), home of those great opponents of almost everything ASA stands for, in his attempt to justify universal evolutionism (throw in that ID has almost NOTHING positive involved with it) and the biological hegemony of all knowledge!
  God help Us!
  G. Arago

Jack <> wrote:
  I don't think that anyone is suggesting, I certainly am not, that even
though "things" like altruism, fear, love, jealousy, loyalty may have come about through biological evolution that, there cannot be ideas,
philosophies, and spiritual experiences that do not arise from biological evolution.

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Received on Mon Jun 11 22:59:54 2007

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