Re: [asa] Pim

From: <>
Date: Tue Jun 05 2007 - 15:32:22 EDT

Having just re-read Stanley Hauerwas's Gifford Lectures (With the Grain of the Universe:  Brazos Press) it strikes me that in fact neither ID nor Lord Gifford's series amount to any sort of "reconciliation" with Christian faith.  Hauerwas points out that the "god" of Gifford's original charge in setting up the lecture series is not the Trinitarian God of Christianity, but at best a very pale substitute.  The same thing probably also applies to ID.  Both (i.e., any natural theology) can be in some ways forms of idolatry by putting secondary things first.  Credo ut intelligam -- not vice versa.

Karl V. Evans

-----Original Message-----
From: PvM <>
To: Gregory Arago <>
Cc: Michael Roberts <>; James Mahaffy <>;
Sent: Tue, 5 Jun 2007 10:28 am
Subject: Re: [asa] Pim

Personally I do not believe that there is much if any redeeming to 
ID(M) as it is formulated by the mainstream ID proponents. 
Scientifically speaking it is vacuous and from a theological 
perspective it is dangerous and unnecessary. 
The best thing I can possibly say is that ID is a well intended 
attempt to reconcile Christian faith and the mistaken concept that 
science cannot deal with concepts of intelligent agency and thus 
requires something extra, borne out of a perspective that science is 
In other words, the best I see ID as is a movement in response (jerk 
reaction?) to atheistic statements which are confused with scientific 
On 6/5/07, Gregory Arago <> wrote: 
> Only because I have a moment and value knowing a bit more about persons on 
> this list also, just as others have noted, would I like to ask the following 
> question. This is not a question that applies to other 'anti-IDists' or 
> 'persons who do not accept ID' at ASA, which appears to be the vast 
> majority, if only going by this list. It is asked only to Pim because he 
> appears to be the staunchest anti-IDist I've ever witnessed on-line in over 
> four years following (the) ID-creation-evolution discourse, who at the same 
> time advocates Christian views of science. 

> Pim: Is there anything GOOD or productive about ID or the IDM that you would 
> be willing to admit; that is, do you see anything creatively positive about 
> ID and its connection with Christian views of science? [Please don't answer 
> with a 'good, but...' - I'm just asking for a 'good, and...' answer with a 
> period after it.] 

> I've asked this before, more than once, and have as of yet heard no 
> response. However, since this thread has your name on it, perhaps you'll be 
> willing to share your not-always-so-negative views about ID. One can only 
> play the apophatic tune for so long until a kataphatic rythme reveals 
> itself. 

> Thanks, 
> G Arago 

> PvM <> wrote: 
> Sure, let me (re)-introduce myself. My name is Pim van Meurs and my 
> background includes a Master's degree in physics (control system 
> dynamics) and a PhD in Physical Oceanography. 
> I enjoy learning about new ideas and feel strongly about scientific 
> issues. As a graduate student I was exposed to YEC for a short 
> duration which has caused me great concern about science and religion. 
> I believe it to be of importance that I as a Christian present as much 
> as an accurate scientific picture as possible or at least present a 
> picture which I am willing to support with facts, supporting data etc, 
> as accuracy or lack thereof is not only detrimental to the scientific 
> argument but also detrimental when people see scientific ignorance 
> being promoted as science by religious people. As such I have grown 
> fond of St Augustine's position on these matters. 
> Some people may see my position as that of a devil's advocate which is 
> incorrect. I try to avoid proposing ideas which I personally do not 
> support, what I do however is to point out when others make strawman 
> arguments about what opponents (such as Dawkins) believes or not 
> believes. 

> I am in other words a Christian and a scientist. 
> Hope this helps 

> Pim 

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Received on Tue Jun 5 15:33:05 2007

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