Re: [asa] Pim

From: PvM <>
Date: Tue Jun 05 2007 - 13:28:38 EDT

Personally I do not believe that there is much if any redeeming to
ID(M) as it is formulated by the mainstream ID proponents.
Scientifically speaking it is vacuous and from a theological
perspective it is dangerous and unnecessary.

The best thing I can possibly say is that ID is a well intended
attempt to reconcile Christian faith and the mistaken concept that
science cannot deal with concepts of intelligent agency and thus
requires something extra, borne out of a perspective that science is
In other words, the best I see ID as is a movement in response (jerk
reaction?) to atheistic statements which are confused with scientific

On 6/5/07, Gregory Arago <> wrote:
> Only because I have a moment and value knowing a bit more about persons on
> this list also, just as others have noted, would I like to ask the following
> question. This is not a question that applies to other 'anti-IDists' or
> 'persons who do not accept ID' at ASA, which appears to be the vast
> majority, if only going by this list. It is asked only to Pim because he
> appears to be the staunchest anti-IDist I've ever witnessed on-line in over
> four years following (the) ID-creation-evolution discourse, who at the same
> time advocates Christian views of science.
> Pim: Is there anything GOOD or productive about ID or the IDM that you would
> be willing to admit; that is, do you see anything creatively positive about
> ID and its connection with Christian views of science? [Please don't answer
> with a 'good, but...' - I'm just asking for a 'good, and...' answer with a
> period after it.]
> I've asked this before, more than once, and have as of yet heard no
> response. However, since this thread has your name on it, perhaps you'll be
> willing to share your not-always-so-negative views about ID. One can only
> play the apophatic tune for so long until a kataphatic rythme reveals
> itself.
> Thanks,
> G Arago
> PvM <> wrote:
> Sure, let me (re)-introduce myself. My name is Pim van Meurs and my
> background includes a Master's degree in physics (control system
> dynamics) and a PhD in Physical Oceanography.
> I enjoy learning about new ideas and feel strongly about scientific
> issues. As a graduate student I was exposed to YEC for a short
> duration which has caused me great concern about science and religion.
> I believe it to be of importance that I as a Christian present as much
> as an accurate scientific picture as possible or at least present a
> picture which I am willing to support with facts, supporting data etc,
> as accuracy or lack thereof is not only detrimental to the scientific
> argument but also detrimental when people see scientific ignorance
> being promoted as science by religious people. As such I have grown
> fond of St Augustine's position on these matters.
> Some people may see my position as that of a devil's advocate which is
> incorrect. I try to avoid proposing ideas which I personally do not
> support, what I do however is to point out when others make strawman
> arguments about what opponents (such as Dawkins) believes or not
> believes.
> I am in other words a Christian and a scientist.
> Hope this helps
> Pim
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Received on Tue Jun 5 13:29:03 2007

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