Re: [asa] Event or process

From: George Murphy <gmurphy@raex.com>
Date: Fri May 18 2007 - 09:12:18 EDT

1st, I was being polite when I said, "the argument from incredulity is not very strong." In fact it proves nothing at all to say "I cannot see how ..." something can happen in one way or another. (Which, en passant, is just one of the things wrong with ID.) Note OTOH that I haven't asserted that a rational soul can arise through natural processes with which God cooperates but have only said that I see no compelling reason to think that it can't. Let's recognize the limits of our knowledge while at the same time recognizing that those limits may be provisional.

2d, Paul's language about peishable, weak &c bodies in I Cor.15 refers to our present ensouled condition, not to a pre-human ancestor. The contrast that Paul makes in 15:44 is between a soma psychikon and a soma pneumatikon. NRSV's "physical body" & NIV's "natural body" don't really catch the full sense of soma psychikon. "Soulish body" would be closer to the Greek. In any case it isn't legitimate to apply this to the development of the present form of humanity.

Shalom
George
http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack" <drsyme@cablespeed.com>
To: "George Murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com>; <bullerscience@gmail.com>; "Carol or John Burgeson" <burgytwo@juno.com>
Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: [asa] Event or process

> No George.
>
> First I was paraphrasing Pauls contrast of the physical body vs the
> spiritual body, so either you think Paul has an "inadequate" view of the
> material world, or you missed my point. Now I understand that Paul is
> talking about a post Fall physical body, but if there is no supernatural
> intervention, i.e. God directly implanting a soul in a creature, then how
> can fallen sinful bodies (as Paul describes) produce eternal souls?
>
> Second, I am wary of possibly sounding like a gnostic, which I am not. I do
> not have a very low or inadequate view of the material world, I think it
> was good, and that it is still good. But our current bodies are as Paul
> describes.
>
> I cannot see how an eternal substance can come about through ordinary means
> (primary or secondary causes) as you suggest. My point is similar to the
> one expressed here:
>
> http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2005/PSCF9-05Siemens.pdf
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George Murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com>
> To: <drsyme@cablespeed.com>; <bullerscience@gmail.com>; "Carol or John
> Burgeson" <burgytwo@juno.com>
> Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 9:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [asa] Event or process
>
>
>> Your first paragraph shows a very low and inadeqaute view of the material
>> world and of our physical bodies - which are God's good creation and on
>> which God has put his final seal of approval in the Incarnation and
>> resurrection of Christ. In addition, the argument from incredulity is not
>> very strong.
>>
>> Your second paragraph begs the basic question.
>>
>> Shalom
>> George
>> http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: <drsyme@cablespeed.com>
>> To: "George Murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com>; <bullerscience@gmail.com>; "Carol
>> or John Burgeson" <burgytwo@juno.com>
>> Cc: <asa@calvin.edu>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 12:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Event or process
>>
>>
>> How can what is dishonorable, perishiable, natural and
>> weak evolve into what is glorious, imperishable,
>> spiritual, and powerful?
>>
>> Before you say that this only applies to our resurrection
>> bodies havent we already been given something
>> supernatural?
>>
>> II Cor 5:5 Now it is God who has made us for this very
>> purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit,
>> guaranteeing what is to come.
>>
>> I honestly cant see any other logical possiblitity except
>> that at some point in our the evolution of our
>> minds/spirit God supernaturally intervened and placed an
>> eternal soul(spirit) in us, and only in us (not animals).
>>
>> Burgy, you might be correct in saying that the bible is
>> not clear on this, but if dogs can be resurrected, then
>> what else, in your opinion, is of the kind that can be
>> resurrected? Does it stop at mammals, invetebrates,
>> multicelled organisms? I think anywhere you would draw
>> the line, I would have more scriptural support for it
>> being Man alone than you would.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 17 May 2007 11:30:51 -0400
>> "George Murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com> wrote:
>>> Those are rather idiosyncratic definitions & cast the whole question in a
>>> different way. I would then say briefly -
>>>
>>> 1) God is the ultimate cause of everything that happens.
>>> 2) The vast majority of things that happen in the world can be explained
>>> in terms of natural processes through which God works. (Primary &
>>> secondary causation if you wish.)
>>>
>>> 3) I think that a great deal of human mental ability evolved in the way
>>> sketched in 1) & see no compelling reason to say that the "soul" didn't
>>> also come about in that way.
>>>
>>>
>>> Shalom
>>> George http://web.raex.com/~gmurphy/
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Carol or John Burgeson To: bullerscience@gmail.com Cc:
>>> asa@calvin.edu Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 11:06 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [asa] Event or process
>>>
>>>
>>> David Buller wrote: "
>>> Which is exactly why I took the position that it was an event and a
>>> process. I think the "phase change analogy" is a great one for this very
>>> reason."
>>>
>>> Perhaps I need to define the two words more tightly.
>>>
>>> An "event" in this case means a direct (non-natural causation)
>>> intervention by divinity. A "process" means natural causation only.
>>>
>>> With these definitions, it has to be one or the other.
>>>
>>> Burgy
>>>
>>> "The first key to wisdom is frequent questioning. For it is by doubting
>>> that we come in enquiry and by enquiry we arrive at the truth." --
>>> Abelard
>>>
>>>
>>> www.burgy.50megs.com/scott.htm (Review of Eugenie Scott's EVOLUTION AND
>>> CREATIONISM
>>
>>
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Received on Fri May 18 09:13:08 2007

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