RE: [asa] Re: ASA stance

From: Dick Fischer <>
Date: Sat May 12 2007 - 23:51:24 EDT

Nowhere did I say that anyone should be "banned" from ASA or asked to
resign their membership. Let's just take an unequivocal stand and
encourage like-minded individuals to join us. There is no question
about earth age among scientists, why should we be silent? Are we
worried about turning people away we don't need anyway?

This is our statement of faith from Genesis Proclaimed Association. It
goes far beyond the ASA statement, but we defend it. Sure we take gas
on "inerrancy." But anybody is free to join us. We don't have any
litmus test. I would presume that anyone who might like to join would
read what's on our web site and peruse this statement before joining.


. . . in the plenary inspiration and inerrancy of the Scriptures
contained in the Old and New Testaments; that the Bible is the only
sufficient rule of faith and practice.
. . . in one God, eternally existing in three persons: God, the Father;
God, the Son: and God, the Holy Spirit.
. . . in the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ, in His virgin birth, in His
sinless life, in His miracles, in His vicarious and atoning death, in
His bodily resurrection, in His ascension to the right hand of the
Father, and in His return to earth in power and glory to judge the
living and the dead.
. . . in the Holy Spirit, God present with us for guidance, for comfort,
and for empowerment.
. . . that the first eleven chapters of Genesis are inspired by God, and
are to be considered just as much a part of the Scriptures as any other
part of the Old or New Testament.
. . . that the Scriptures can be and ought to be clarified and
illuminated by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit, the observed workings
of nature, and by scientific and historical discovery.
. . . that where discrepancies seem to exist we need to hold those parts
of Scripture in abeyance, honoring them, but avoiding controversy by
interpreting them in a way that is inconsistent with what we can observe
in nature, verify through science and history, or perceive by comparison
with the rest of the inspired Scriptures.
. . . that scientific methods have validity, and can be applied to
elements of our faith.
. . . that science cannot sit in judgment of Scripture, but can only
illuminate and clarify to keep us from making mistakes in interpretation
that could cause our brothers to stumble.

Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association
Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History


-----Original Message-----
From: [] On
Behalf Of Jack
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 8:19 PM
To: Christine Smith;
Subject: Re: [asa] Re: ASA stance

I never thought that the point of this thread was to exclude ayone. I
thought the point was to make a clear statement, as a group, about the
of the earth. If someone who does not agreee with that view wants to be
member I see no reason to exclude them.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christine Smith" <>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 8:03 PM
Subject: Re: [asa] Re: ASA stance

> In the course of these discussions I'm reminded of
> some song lyrics by the group Casting Crowns--
> "Jesus paid much too high a price
> For us to pick and choose who should come
> Cause we are the body of Christ"
> Let us never be accused of excluding Christians from
> our fellowship...
> The ASA believes that:
> "As an organization, the ASA does not take a position
> when there is honest disagreement between Christians
> on an issue. We are committed to providing an open
> forum where controversies can be discussed without
> fear of unjust condemnation. Legitimate differences of
> opinion among Christians who have studied both the
> Bible and science are freely expressed within the
> Affiliation in a context of Christian love and concern
> for truth."
> I would interpret this to mean that we respect the
> integrity of the scientific *process* and the
> prayerful process of interpreting scripture, but that
> the resulting conclusions reached by our brothers and
> sisters should be respected as "legitimate differences
> of opinion"; that being said, we are bound to admonish
> each other in both science and scriptural
> interpretation in order to maintain the integrity of
> the truth as much as we are able to discern it. Where
> there is no *honest disagreement* about this truth,
> then I think it is appropriate for ASA to take a
> stance. If we are not sure whether or not *honest
> disagreement* exists, then I think it would be better
> to remain charitable to the minority opinion by not
> taking such a stand. This may not be the most PR savy
> thing to do, but then, Jesus was more concerned with
> people and relationships, not PR.
> So I think the question that we have to focus on as an
> organization is this: is there an *honest
> disagreement* among us that both the Biblical and
> scientific understanding put forth in a YEC framework
> is not representative of the truth? If ASA, as a
> group, is satisfied that YEC does not represent truth,
> either Biblically or scientifically, then I think ASA
> should make a *respectful* statement to this effect;
> in conjunction with this however, it should be made
> *very clear* that the organization nevertheless
> welcomes *all* Christians in fellowship, regardless of
> their position on this issue.
> Christine Smith
> --- George Murphy <> wrote:
>> & since YEC does not "reflect ... commitment to
>> intrgrity in the practice of science," it would be
>> quite appropriate for the organization to take a
>> stand against it. That could be said in the
>> abstract about the lot of positions, but at present
>> it's especially YEC that misleads many Christians &
>> makes Christianity look foolish to scientifically
>> literate people. It is current & active errors that
>> need to be denounced. Conversely, ASA fails in its
>> responsibilities if it does not speak out against
>> such a current dangers & contents itself with
>> generalities.
>> Again - this does not mean that people who
>> personally hold to a young earth view have to be
>> "excommunicated" & I don't think they should be.
>> Shalom
>> George
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: David Opderbeck
>> To: Alexanian, Moorad
>> Cc: Dick Fischer ; ASA
>> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 6:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [asa] Re: ASA stance
>> I tend to agree with Moorad here. The ASA
>> statement of purpose and beliefs seems perfectly
>> adequate ( and
>> There are
>> plenty of opportunities to write and speak about
>> whether any particular YEC position (or ID position,
>> or TE position, or whatever) reflects both "fidelity
>> to the Word of God and a commitment to integrity in
>> the practice of science." Let's primarily define
>> ourselves positively, rather than negatively.
>> On 5/12/07, Alexanian, Moorad <>
>> wrote:
>> The basis for ASA membership covers the whole
>> gamut from those interested in science to practicing
>> scientist. It is awarding of fellows that some
>> criteria may be in play. In addition, publishing in
>> PSCF goes through the usual peer-review scrutiny.
>> Therefore, I do not see why a YEC should be banned
>> from ASA. This is essentially, what is written in
>> last page in any issue of PSCF.
>> Moorad
>> ________________________________
>> From: on behalf of
>> Dick Fischer
>> Sent: Sat 5/12/2007 1:14 PM
>> To: ASA
>> Subject: RE: [asa] Re: ASA stance
>> ASA stands for integrity in science. YECs trash
>> science. Why are they
>> welcome? Are non-Christians welcome? Are
>> members of Satanic cults
>> welcome? Muslims? Hindus? Why not just
>> welcome everybody regardless
>> of religious beliefs or attitudes toward
>> science?
>> IDers are and should be welcome. They are
>> theists and respect science
>> even though they have a theory that does not
>> qualify as science.
>> I would be against mentioning YEC at all. Tell
>> everybody what we
>> believe, include earth age and biological
>> evolution too if you like, and
>> those who believe as we do are free to join.
>> Simple.
>> Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association
>> Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [mailto:
>>] On
>> Behalf Of Dave Wallace
>> Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 8:34 AM
>> Cc: ASA list
>> Subject: [asa] Re: ASA stance
>> Bill Hamilton wrote:
>> >
>> > I would vote for an ASA policy that said
>> essentially
>> >
>> > 1. All ASA members pledge to treat Christian
>> brothers respectfully
>> > 2. YECs are welcome in ASA. However, the ASA
>> accepts the current
>> > geological estimates of the age of the earth
>> and biological evolution
>> > 3. The mission of ASA includes teaching sound
>> science in the Christian
>> > community
>> >
>> As I have thought about it and seen the
>> responses my take is that Bill's
>> suggestion is much better than the one I made
>> namely:
>> <quote>
>> If the issue ever comes up for a vote, probably
>> in the end I would opt
>> for excluding YEC at least from voting
>> membership especially considering
>> that they have formed their own organizations to
>> deal with origins.
>> </quote>
>> UcD does not seem to have been treating TEs at
>> all respectfully IMHO and
>> that is not just in posts but in headline
>> articles that have been
>> affirmed or written by the blog owners.
>> Dave W
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Received on Sat May 12 23:52:37 2007

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