RE: [asa] Dawkins, religion, and children

From: Janice Matchett <>
Date: Wed May 02 2007 - 12:00:48 EDT

At 11:26 AM 5/2/2007, Alexanian, Moorad wrote:
>Let us all keep in mind the following verses in Romans 1:
> 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes,
> His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being
> understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
> 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or
> give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and
> their foolish heart was darkened.
> 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
> 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image
> in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals
> and crawling creatures.
> 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to
> impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
> 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped
> and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

@ I think it's more correctly translated as, "the"
lie. (Interesting word, there: "EXCHANGED", isn't it?)

"....Interestingly, just as sexuality, in order to be properly human,
must be spiritualized, Schuon notes that intellectual (i.e.,
spiritual) knowledge has an ecstatic dimension to it, if for no other
reason that it is known with the heart (or mind in the heart, the
"location" of the higher mind): "There is a spiritualization of
sexuality just as there is, conversely, an animalization of
intelligence [what we are calling the vital mind]; in the first case,
what can be the occasion of a fall becomes a means of elevation; in
the second case, intelligence is dehumanized and gives rise to
materialism, even existentialism, hence to 'thinking' which is human
only in its mode and of which the content is properly subhuman."

But then, these subhuman philosophies become the justification to
fall further into vital animality.

Postmodern philosophies use the spirit to deny the spirit, leaving us
with a wholly horizontal wasteland of matter and instinct.

This intellectual operation is a complete success, even though the
patient--the human qua human--does not survive it.

A new kind of infrahuman is born, forgetful of his fall and "at ease
in a world that presents itself as an end in itself, and which
exempts man from the effort of transcending himself"--which is to
have shunned and bypassed our reason for being here.

The fall is nearly complete. But not before we drag this whole
despiritualized existentialada down with us, which we will do
tomorrow in discussing the final stage of the nihilist dialectic:
destruction." ~ 10/15/2006 enter Free of God, Animalized
Intellect, Encased in Mud into the search engine

~ Janice

>From: []
>On Behalf Of Janice Matchett
>Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 11:12 AM
>To: David Opderbeck; Merv
>Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins, religion, and children
>At 10:11 AM 5/2/2007, David Opderbeck wrote:
>for being a "theology lightweight" (and I agree that he is), Dawkins
>sure does net a lot of noisy attention here. If Pim is his only
>defender present and is not mounting sufficient challenge to
>overcome criticisms, then why all the ruckus? ~ Merv
>Maybe for a few reasons: (1) Dawkins gets lots of public / cultural
>attention; (2) the communities many of us live and work in
>(scientific / academic) give lots of creedence to philosohpical
>materialism; and (3) many of us really have thought carefully about
>atheism and materialism and really are capable of presenting and are
>keen to present reasonable Christian / theistic responses to it for
>the record in this public forum.
>I highlight the last point, Merv, not for your benefit, but for the
>benefit of others who think all of us here are wimps when it comes
>to responding to materialism. ~ David O.
>@ "...Furthermore, the contemporary Christian must not only be able
>to confidently and lucidly respond to what passes for the
>fashionable worldly wisdom of the day, but to confront the enemies
>of Christianity with superior arguments, something which is
>eminently possible. What is the alternative, being a clown like Pat
>Robertson or Jerry Falwell, so people will go on thinking that such
>bozos are somehow representative of the intellectual depths of Christianity?
>Clement pointed out something that would not be logically proven
>until Godel's theorems in the 20th century, that it requires an act
>of faith in order to employ first principles of any kind, whether
>"scientific" or religious. For example, if your first principle is
>that only empirical knowledge is possible, your first principle
>cannot be proven empirically. Rather, you take it on faith. Nor can
>natural selection prove that natural selection is responsible for
>the human mind, any more than DNA can prove that it holds the secret of life.
>Clement concludes that "knowledge is a state of mind that results
>from demonstration; but faith is a grace which from what is
>indemonstrable conducts to what is universal and simple, something
>that is neither with matter, nor matter, nor under
>matter." ~ 4/30/07
>~ Janice ..... "On the Uselessness of Freedom and the
>Impossibility of Truth - Since American style liberty was conceived
>primarily in negative terms, it is either unappreciated or wasted by
>anyone without a spiritual grounding. In other words, our political
>liberty is not fundamentally "freedom to" but "freedom from,"
>specifically, from the coercion of government. However, at the same
>time, if it is only freedom from, then it can quickly descend into
>mere license, or nihilism, or anarchy. .......[huge snip] ... Once
>it is forgotten that knowledge of truth constitutes the mind's
>freedom, then we will no longer know what either word means, for
>freedom in the absence of truth is absurdity, while truth in the
>absence of freedom is hell." 4-29-07

To unsubscribe, send a message to with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Wed May 2 12:01:27 2007

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Wed May 02 2007 - 12:01:27 EDT