RE: [asa] Dawkins, religion, and children

From: Alexanian, Moorad <>
Date: Wed May 02 2007 - 11:26:20 EDT

Let us all keep in mind the following verses in Romans 1:


 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His
eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being
understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give
thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish
heart was darkened.

 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the
form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and
crawling creatures.

 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to
impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.

 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and
served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever.




From: [] On
Behalf Of Janice Matchett
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 11:12 AM
To: David Opderbeck; Merv
Subject: Re: [asa] Dawkins, religion, and children


At 10:11 AM 5/2/2007, David Opderbeck wrote:

for being a "theology lightweight" (and I agree that he is), Dawkins
sure does net a lot of noisy attention here. If Pim is his only
defender present and is not mounting sufficient challenge to overcome
criticisms, then why all the ruckus? ~ Merv
Maybe for a few reasons: (1) Dawkins gets lots of public / cultural
attention; (2) the communities many of us live and work in (scientific /
academic) give lots of creedence to philosohpical materialism; and (3)
many of us really have thought carefully about atheism and materialism
and really are capable of presenting and are keen to present reasonable
Christian / theistic responses to it for the record in this public

I highlight the last point, Merv, not for your benefit, but for the
benefit of others who think all of us here are wimps when it comes to
responding to materialism. ~ David O.

@ "...Furthermore, the contemporary Christian must not only be able to
confidently and lucidly respond to what passes for the fashionable
worldly wisdom of the day, but to confront the enemies of Christianity
with superior arguments, something which is eminently possible. What is
the alternative, being a clown like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell, so
people will go on thinking that such bozos are somehow representative of
the intellectual depths of Christianity?

Clement pointed out something that would not be logically proven until
Godel's theorems in the 20th century, that it requires an act of faith
in order to employ first principles of any kind, whether "scientific" or
religious. For example, if your first principle is that only empirical
knowledge is possible, your first principle cannot be proven
empirically. Rather, you take it on faith. Nor can natural selection
prove that natural selection is responsible for the human mind, any more
than DNA can prove that it holds the secret of life.

Clement concludes that "knowledge is a state of mind that results from
demonstration; but faith is a grace which from what is indemonstrable
conducts to what is universal and simple, something that is neither with
matter, nor matter, nor under matter." ~ 4/30/07

~ Janice ..... "On the Uselessness of Freedom and the Impossibility of
Truth - Since American style liberty was conceived primarily in
negative terms, it is either unappreciated or wasted by anyone without a
spiritual grounding. In other words, our political liberty is not
fundamentally "freedom to" but "freedom from," specifically, from the
coercion of government. However, at the same time, if it is only freedom
from, then it can quickly descend into mere license, or nihilism, or
anarchy. .......[huge snip] ... Once it is forgotten that knowledge of
truth constitutes the mind's freedom, then we will no longer know what
either word means, for freedom in the absence of truth is absurdity,
while truth in the absence of freedom is hell." 4-29-07

To unsubscribe, send a message to with
"unsubscribe asa" (no quotes) as the body of the message.
Received on Wed May 2 11:26:55 2007

This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.8 : Wed May 02 2007 - 11:26:55 EDT