Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

From: George Murphy <>
Date: Thu Mar 29 2007 - 21:25:56 EDT

Yes, v.7 refers to the day of judgment. What I said a couple of posts ago was 'that "judgment" is not the primary theme of II Peter 3:1-10.' I have not denied that the destruction of the world is connected with judgment. & I should not have said "it's not about judgment at all" - an exaggerated statement in response to repeated arguments which made the text entirely about judgment.

The argument of the scoffers in Ch.3 is that the world has gone on without change from the beginning of creation & therefore the promise of Christ's coming is foolish. The author counters by pointing to the flood in order to show that "the heavens and earth" - the whole world - can be destroyed. I do not see how that language about the coming destruction can reasonably be understood as less than universal. My original point was that this appeal to the flood would carry no weight in this argument if the flood were not understood by the author & his readers to have a similar scope.

That's it. It seems to me a straightforward argument & if it defies common sense then I don't know what common sense is. & the extent to which this destruction is connected with judgment doesn't change the argument.

The reason judgment got to be front & center in this discussion is that David tried to use it to make a connection with the local character of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. But that assumes (a) that judgment is the key idea in Ch.3, which it isn't & (b) that Ch.3 is dealing with the same scoffers as in Ch.2, & it isn't.

But let me ask this: Is the reason why several of you are arguing that the author of II Peter didn't think the flood was universal just that you don't want to have to say that he was wrong about that? Or is there another reason?

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Jack
  To: George Murphy ; David Opderbeck
  Cc: ASA list
  Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 6:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

  George, this was your quote that started this portion of the thread: "To note just one point, the way in which II Peter 3:5-7 uses the story of the flood to argue for the possibility of the destruction of "the present heavens and earth" makes no sense if the writer of II Peter did not think of the flood as affecting the whole world."

  Did you forget that we were talking about v 5-7, not just verse 4?

   v7 "By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." (NIV)

  The KJV, NAS, new KJV also all use the word judgment. I doubt you think that all of those translators are wrong, so you must be trying to make some obscure point, that has deviated from your original point. This passage is clearly about judgment. Despite the appearance of being erudite, it is getting to the point where your posts defy common sense.
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: George Murphy
    To: David Opderbeck
    Cc: ASA list
    Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:12 PM
    Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

    1) You apparently don't know the difference between what a biblical text says & theological deductions drawn from it.

    2) It should have given you some pause when I had to point out that you'd misquoted the text to bring the word "judgment" into it. You apparently had formed your interpretation of the text before reading it carefully. You ought to practice a little introspective Tendenzkritik.


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Received on Thu Mar 29 20:26:55 2007

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