Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

From: George Murphy <>
Date: Wed Mar 21 2007 - 13:39:24 EDT

So when Israelites said "all the living" they meant "all Israelites." Some of them may have been very inward looking but I don't think to that extent!

And, as I noted in a ppost to which Dick hasn't yet replied: "The ancestor of the "covenant race" (to the extent that that's a valid concept) is Abraham. Accepting the validity of Genesis as an historical account, there are many other peoples decended from Noah, who of course is a descendant of Adam - see chapter 10."

Dick does the same kind of thing that Glenn does - claim that an historical reading of Genesis is going to be maintained & then bob & weave to try to fit modern scientific and historical data into it. The notion that "mother of all the living" doesn't mean what it clearly does mean is one example. In spite of that, Dick's reading is less extravagant than Glenn's because it doesn't require, z.B., that ~ 5Myr be fitted into Gen.10-11. But it's still unjustified.

Orthodox Christianity has always held - against Marcion & others - that the OT is scripture for Christians. Precisely one of the points that Paul makes in Romans 9-11
is that Gentile Christians are grafted onto Israel, & thus their "mail" becomes ours. Or as Paul says about another piece of the story of Israel in I Cor.10, "they were written down to instruct us, on whom the ends of the ages have come."

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Dick Fischer
  To: ASA
  Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2007 11:18 AM
  Subject: RE: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

  Eve was the mother, as Adam was the father of the Israelites for whom Genesis was written and to whom it was directed. We Christians are free to read their mail so to speak, but it was not written initially for us. It is this tendency we have to read ourselves into Jewish history that continues to get us into hermeneutical holes. As far back as I can go is one great grandfather named Pfizer (changed to "Fisher" at Ellis Island) who was a captain in the Prussian Army, or so I've been told. Who his wife was I have no idea. But the Israelites had the benefit of genealogical records that reached all the way back to their earliest ancestor - Adam.

  Dick Fischer

  Dick Fischer, Genesis Proclaimed Association

  Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History

  -----Original Message-----
  From: [] On Behalf Of George Murphy
  Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:15 PM
  To: Bill Hamilton;
  Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

  How was Adam's wife "the mother of all living" (Gen.3:20) if Adam wasn't the father of all living?


    ----- Original Message -----

    From: Bill Hamilton

    To: Gregory Arago ;

    Cc: Glenn Morton

    Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2007 6:22 PM

    Subject: Re: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

    The ASA statement of faith references the historic Christian creeds, which don't, as far as I know, explicitly require a belief in Adam and Eve. So strictly speaking, I suppose you could be an ASA member without believing in Adam and Eve. Having said that, I will state that _I_ believe that there were specific persons Adam and Eve. In spite of the objections raised by Glenn, I like Dick Fischer's view that Adam lived in Mesopotamia about 7000 years ago. For reference, the objections raised by Glenn include

    1. Under Dick's scenario we are not all descended from Adam. Glenn sees that view as an excuse for racism. I don't, because of the many laws, commandments etc. given throughout Scripture detailing how we are to treat our fellow human beings

    2. Under Dick's scenario it's difficult to understand how a flood approaching the description of Genesis could have occurred (in southern Mesopotamia). I admit this is a difficulty, but that doesn't justify throwing out Dick's scenario

    Bill Hamilton
    William E. Hamilton, Jr., Ph.D.
    248.652.4148 (home) 248.821.8156 (mobile)
    "...If God is for us, who is against us?" Rom 8:31

    ----- Original Message ----
    From: Gregory Arago <>
    Sent: Monday, March 19, 2007 7:49:07 AM
    Subject: [asa] Does ASA believe in Adam and Eve?

    It is well known that ASA once issued an unambiguous statement: 'We believe in creation!' Would ASA be willing to follow that important, courageous clarification up with a further statement: 'We believe in Adam and Eve!'? This is one of my main questions for all theistic evolutionists (TE's).

    G. Arago


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Received on Wed Mar 21 12:40:18 2007

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