Re: [asa] Question for all the theistic evolutionists

From: David Opderbeck <>
Date: Fri Mar 16 2007 - 19:06:59 EDT

*As far as I can see, the only support for
> such a claim is that it is too far back in time*.

No, the support is that none of these activities, in themselves, are
sufficient to consitute the IOG.

Are the Neanderthals capable of building cathedrals? Writing something like
Dante's Inferno? Assembling choirs and orchestras that could perform
Handel's Messiah?

It is not merely some limited capability to relate, speak, sing, or worship
that constitutes the IOG. It is a concatenation of these and other
capabilities producing a synergistic *something else *that, as far as we can
tell from the paleontological and archeological record, all the other
hominds lacked.

Further, all of this is bound to a particular spiritual relationship -- a
capacity to have a covenant relationship with God and a responsibility to
God for keeping the moral law. That capacity and responsibility are not
empirically demonstrable but are revealed to us in scripture as aspects of
how human beings, uniquely among the animals, relate to God, obtain
stewardship of the whole creation, and are given the cultural mandate.

Now, since you are the one making the assertion, let's place the burden of
proof on you, where it properly belongs. Demonstrate that any of the
capabilities that have been identified in non-human hominids can result in
grand scale things like city-building, libraries, extended theological
disputation, extended codes of law and ethics, great works of literature,
etc., etc. Any such claim, I'm sure, would have you laughed out of any
anthropology conference.

On 3/16/07, John Burgeson (Burgy) <> wrote:
> >> Why is that position not "rational?"
> >>
> This is my last post for awhile as I'm away from the net for several
> days.
> My answer is maybe what Glenn would write -- although he'd do it
> better.
> Suppose you have a time machine. You travel back to -- say -- 350KY
> ago and observe burial processes involving grave goods. On what basis
> do you say the entities taking part in the ceremonies have no IOG?
> Or the dark cave of the Neanderthals. Same question as you see them
> dancing around the fire 2 miles deep in a lightless cave.
> Or the northlands, where you observe entities wearing clothing in
> winter.
> My point is simply this -- I don't know that in any of these cases
> the entities have the IOG. But the claim that they do not has to be
> supported by something. As far as I can see, the only support for
> such a claim is that it is too far back in time. Which begs the
> question.
> cheers
> jb

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Received on Fri Mar 16 19:07:13 2007

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