RE: [asa] Question for all the theistic evolutionists

From: Glenn Morton <>
Date: Mon Mar 12 2007 - 22:54:46 EDT

This is for Carib, Dave W., Ted Davis, Brent Foster and George M.

> > I must say I'm in sympathy with glenns program.Glenn email me
> > when you go out on a sortie and feel you need a wingman :-)
> > Those who say that you shouldnt debate because you dont win
> > debates on the Internet, well doh. The internet is the one
> > place where NOBODY ever admits they are wrong. There are two
> > reasons to mix it up. One is to show the flag. On the
> > Internet, if you dont speak up in a public forum, you dont
> > exist. The other is to show to the lurkers and seekers out
> > there that there are better arguments for Christianity than
> > the drivel served up by YECs. THe seeker, looking at YEC
> > aerguments, must be convinced that you have to commit
> > intellectual suicide to be a Christian, PACE Provine. We TEs
> > have to show that there are better arguments out there for
> > Christianity than the latest cowflop from Answers in Genesis.
> > I'm especially miffed that a militant antireligionist like
> > Sam Harris appear tro go round virtually unchallenged and is
> > lionized as some kind of Deep Thinker when all he is giving
> > us is warmed over Bertrand Russell. This is at a point whenn
> > even physcists are being to bump into the l;imits of a
> > simplicisatic empiricism. Indeed, today I was reading about
> > dark matter and dark energy. Many cosmologists are convinced
> > that they exist, although :

Thank you Carib, I will take you up on that. I plan to start in about 2-3
weeks. I want to regain some strength from the whipping the radiation has
given me and I am desparately re-reading philosophy books so I can
understand the arguments better and have the ammo to deal with what I
suspect I will deal with. I have already had several debates with atheists
using some of the arguments, and did quite well. This is the sort of
reaction I was hoping for. Finally someone actually willing to DO something.

Dave W. asked:

> I am asking a serious question here, how far would the TEs on
> this list go before deciding their was nothing to Christianity?

My observation is they would go pretty far which actually saddens me. I
remember hearing some people throwing out talking snakes, floating ax heads
and other miracles, which is the same thing the atheists throw out of the
Bible which makes me think that my friend, Wil Provine, is correct. We are
practical atheists, not believing in any miracles and living as if there
really is no God. If we have a God, capable of performing miracles, why is
it that we want Him NOT to perform a single miracle? Why is it that we want
to believe that there are no miracles in the Bible save the resurrection?
(anyone denying this better get ready to defend floating ax heads).

And I would agree with something you said. I would prefer to be right or
have Dick Fischer be right. I see little else that has a prayer of matching
observational data. If someone comes up with a third view that does better
than Dick or I, then I would switch in an instant (after asking all the
tough questions I can think of).

Ted Davis wrote;

>What scientist wants to be thought of as a "creationist" by their
scientific colleagues, if it is not an accurate label to apply
>in their case?

For petes sake. I am in the geological sciences and I tell my colleagues
that I am a creationist and then explain that I believe God created life and
then it evolved. I get very little flack for that. I also say I believe God
was miraculously involved in the creation of man. Likewise, I get no flack
for that. If we don't stand for something, then we stand for NOTHING! If
we don't take risks, we can't garner the reward.

I would also note, that if these TE's don't even believe that God created
the world, then they then fall into denying even the minimalist belief in
the 'historical essence' of Genesis. It becomes, at that point utterly
ludicrous to believe anything in Genesis. Like saying, "Genesis is inspired
by God to teach us that He created the world, (except he didn't), to teach
us that he made man (except that he didn't do that evolution did), to teach
us that he is not like the polytheistic gods of neighboring tribes (which He
accomplishes by not actually doing any of the things they are claimed to
have done, like creating the world, the animals, and man!). What a

Brent Foster wrote:

>But one thing I fear is way too prominent is TE pastors who swallow their
TE convictions for fear of negative reaction
>from their congregation. And this is a very legitimate fear; it would be
carreer suicide for some TE pastors to publicly
>support evolution, and I don't envy their position.

I would agree, and a pastor close to me, whose views on evolution I really
don't know, I have advised to keep his mouth shut. Is that hypocrisy on my
part? Perhaps, but I don't want my son ruining his career. My suspicion is
that he is not a TE. If you think it strange that I don't know my own son's
views on this, it is. Maybe I don't want to find out that I am a failed

George M. wrote:

>Fear of negative reaction is 1 side of the story. The other is that many
>Clergy don't think that the issue is all that important & so not worth the
>risk. How does it hurt if people think the earth is 6000 years old or that

>Adam was literally made from dust & Eve from his rib?

Well, lets see, they can go have a crisis of faith and turn out exactly like
me and become another irritant under your skin. Or, worse, they could leave
the faith altogether as so many of my atheist friends have done.

They're Here: The Pathway Papers
Foundation, Fall, and Flood
Adam, Apes and Anthropology

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Received on Mon Mar 12 22:55:16 2007

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