Re: [asa] UN Downgrades Man's Impact On The Climate

From: <>
Date: Thu Dec 14 2006 - 19:57:00 EST

[Snipped initial comments on SETI]
Janice (jm):

> >> >>> jm@ Who wants to stop it? It's privately financed - mainly by
>>> the types of people who are regular listeners to the Art Bell radio show.
>>> It's none of my business how individuals want to spend their own hard-earned
>>> dollars. ~ Janice
>> wd: Neither is it mine. But you equivocate. ~ Wayne
> jm:@@ Not at all.

[snipped long cut and past of text by Michael Crichton who has
as much credential as I do to speak on environmental issues
according to the resume cited (now 6 times in total I estimate)]

Hugh Ross long ago made the point quite clear. His estimates seem
reasonable and his astronomy is (as far as I am aware) basically
sound. I said "let them (the people who think life is inevitable) find out
for themselves". Well... what's wrong with that? And I don't even
find it wrong to help them, maybe even with a small amount of our
tax dollars. A good teacher lets his/her students learn for themselves.
Moreover, a good teacher is also willing to learn. The more we explore,
the more sure we can be of the accuracy of Hugh Ross' assessment.

Moreover, Michael Crichton (who has as much credential as I do to
talk about environment according to the resume you cite) doesn't
make _any_ estimate, so it could even be that the SETI people are
correct, at least with the information he does give. Hugh Ross at
least took the risk to go out on the line and say something.

> >> >>> >>>> What about evolution? The notion is always, "stamp it out!".
>>>> Why? Are we afraid of something? I understand that worshiping the creation
>>>> instead of the creator is an issue. However, if Augustine were not to
>>>> have passed through Manichaeism and Platonism he would have hardly become
>>>> the effective Christian father he became. It was by God's Grace that he
>>>> because a Christian, and it was through the work of God's leading that passed
>>>> him through these periods. We must live in this world, therefore we most
>>>> also engage it. Should anyone really find rest in the temple of
>>>> extremist scientism? ~ Wayne
>>> @ Another fallacious statement, "the notion is always.." Which theory
>>> of evolution are you talking about, and whose money do you want to spend?
>>> ~ Janice
>> [snipped the pope's statement] ~ Wayne
> @@ You didn't want to answer the questions? Why?

You have disparaged the pope as one not worthy of
listening to, and as far as I could tell, you would never
listen to him, yet now you quote him. That's very strange.

Furthermore, no such platform as you say was used by
the creationists in any of these confrontations. They have raised
the issue the atheism as a religion, and I agree with that.
However, they have not fought court battles to have certain
atheist religious assertions removed (something that is fair
for a K-12 public school), they have fought to have creation
science and ID taught in schools as science and to be funded
using our tax dollars.

> >> >>> Now, you may think that Christians ought to be willing to have their
>>> tax dollars confiscated and used to teach their children what they consider
>>> to be the atheistic / secular humanist version of the theory of evolution,
>>> but most aren't. Once again, the "funding" is where the problem comes
>>> in. ~ Janice
>> These brawls have been about teaching creation and/or ID as science. ~
>> Wayne
> jm: @@ Now you know as well as I do that the brawl is about "Christian"
> parents being quite frustrated by the fact that their tax money is being used
> against their will to indoctrinate their children with theories of evolution
> that are incompatible with the truth about man (as the pope outlines below).
> They are merely trying to find a way to counteract it.

Whereas creationist surely draw
sympathy for what you say, they have a very clear purpose
to have creation science taught as equivalent to science and
ultimately to have be _the science_ and to be done so using our
tax dollars.

[Again snipped the pope's statement which is irrelevant since the efforts
have always been aimed at inculcating creation science into the public mind
with our tax dollars and not as the pope has made clear separating religion
from evolution.]

> >> >>> >>>> Christians seem willing to invest .... Yet somehow, when it
>>>> comes to environment and evolution, they shout "lies!" and "conspiracy!". If
>>>> they are soooooo cock sure that it will all take care of itself with
>>>> noooooo problem, why not let a little public investment find that out? What
>>>> are they afraid of? ~ Wayne
>>> @ More fallacious statements. The fact is, they're not afraid of
>>> anything, they're just being realistic about human nature.. In one of your more
>>> unguarded moments, you admit how right they are to be skeptical: ~ Janice
>> I see, so investing in creation science is showing more skepticism and
>> being more realistic. ~ Wayne
> @@ I wouldn't invest in it myself (I'd home school), but some parents are
> desperate enough at this point to try anything to prevent their children from
> being indoctrinated by atheists/secular humanists. That's just the way it
> is.

This looks like it may be your words and says something. Yes, people are
concerned about the youth being indoctrinated. I doubt that there is
much in K-12, but certainly in college, anything goes. We can't run and
hide in bunker. We must get out and face the world. You cannot do anything
about it after 18. Parents would do better to teach the lessons of faith
example, by living sincere Christian lives. That is the best gift we can give

> >> >>> "..Science is dazzling, and you can bamboozle all sorts of smart
>>> people with a few whizz bang proofs and a lot of nonsense equations. If you
>>> have some fancy gadget to show, that's even better. Pretty soon, people are
>>> like a bunch of dumb dogs staring at flashing lights and loud noises. .."
>>> ~ Wayne Sun, 19 Feb 2006 11:34:04 EST Re:
>>> Self-deception, faith, and scepticism
>>> "The problem is that greed, lust of the world with its the trappings of
>>> power and influence, and the ability to find all manner of specious pretext
>>> to exploit and abuse out brothers and sisters in Christ, all conspire to
>>> tempt even those who have some fear of the Lord to sin." ~ Wayne
>>> Wed, 8 Mar 2006 11:43:15 EST Re: The Left Hand of God or "is God a
>>> [s-word]" ~ Janice
>> Pushing a little high on the hyperbole I see but hard to see how this
>> actually fits the context here. And so ...... ? ~ Wayne
> @@ It fits the context, and you know it. You plainly admitted how easy it
> is to "bamboozle all sorts of smart people" with "science" and how tempting it
> is - even for a Christian - to exploit and abuse others with "all manner of
> specious pretext."

Nehemiah wrote "WE have sinned". The enemy is in _all_ of us, and
I don't see you admitting that. It is very easy to point an accusing
finger at someone else and say "you lie!", but a lot harder to come
up with the courage to say "I lie". I have yet to sense the latter part
in you. Moreover, you hide behind a smoke screen of insults
and internet clippings. What reason have I do take you seriously?
A man (or woman) who is honest, lays his/her goods out on the table.
Even if he/she is killed for laying them out, and I know that happens,
his/her honor cannot be killed.

But don't hide behind a mask and barf out large internet clippings and
expect me to take you seriously.

> >> >>> >>>> I appreciate that Pim is taking so much time out to investigate
>>>> these humdrum harangues from Janice. .." ~ by Grace we proceed, Wayne
>>> @ :)
>>> ~ Janice .... who couldn't resist offering one last fallacious humdrum
>>> harangue for this post : ) "..What offended me most about creationists was
>>> not so much what they believe (although I confess I find it strongly
>>> disagreeable), rather it was that they insisted that I must believe it too. .."
>>> ~ Wayne Sun, 19 Feb 2006 10:46:47 EST - Re: Believe
>>> it even if it isn't true theology
>> This post was describing part of my own experience before and after I
>> became a Christian. Throughout my Christian walk there have been times when
>> that has come up again. ~ by Grace we proceed, Wayne
> @@ Let's turn that around: "..What offended me most about Darwinists
> was not so much what they believe (although I confess I find it strongly
> disagreeable), rather it was that they insisted that I must believe it too. .." ~
> Creationists

Again, fine. I didn't enjoy having secular humanist doctrine
inculcated into me in the university either. But again,
Christians must engage the world. Moreover, if we just
try to hammer our own thing like the secular humanist do,
what good are we? Have we set a better example? Have
we really fought the good fight? Or have we just been down
and dirty like the world?

by Grace we proceed,

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Received on Thu Dec 14 19:57:59 2006

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