RE: [asa] ELCA Lutheran magazine articles

From: Austerberry, Charles <>
Date: Thu Sep 28 2006 - 13:22:19 EDT

Thanks, George, for noting the Utke article, and for accurately
summarizing it. Sorry I didn't include a link to it before, but it's at Utke's
concept of ID is more like the pope's, for example - what most of us
would call TE rather than ID. What Utke and the pope want to oppose is
atheistic evolution (which they sometimes call Darwinism).


From: George Murphy []
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:59 AM
To: Gregory Arago; Austerberry, Charles;
Subject: Re: [asa] ELCA Lutheran magazine articles

Gregory et al -
In connection with your concluding question, note that Hollabuagh's
article was accompanied by 2 responses (for which there are links at the
beginning of the article). Al Utke's response isn't an endorsement of
ID in the sense that the IDers use it (i.e., intelligent design as a
necessary component of scientific theories) but does raise some
questions about where some concept of intelligent design may be

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Gregory Arago <>
        To: Austerberry, Charles <> ;
        Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:28 PM
        Subject: Re: [asa] ELCA Lutheran magazine articles

        Thank you for pointing to this Lutheran magazine. I enjoyed the
articles (and agreed in several cases with the critiques of i+d), but
didn't find they help much in sorting out the difficult distinctions
between evolution, creation and intelligent design, across a range of
fields. They're mainly about the Dover i+d trial and there seems to be a
basic consensus already at the ASA discussion list, if not within its
        "As an astronomer, everywhere I look in the universe-from the
largest galaxy to the smallest organism-I see evolution. As a Lutheran
Christian, I also confess that God created me and all that exists. For
me, there is no conflict." - Mark Hollabaugh
        For him, inside of such sweeping statement, there is still
evolution and creation, one of the great debates of the 20th century
(and second half of the 19th), and today we're in the 21st century! It
sure seems easy for physical scientists, or scientists who study
physical things to make such professions. Whereas if Dr. Hollabaugh were
to speak with someone in his congregation about 'spiritual evolution' or
'evolutionary theology' or suggest that 'God evolves' there'd be quite
different implications! What about the things he doesn't 'see' but that
still nevertheless exist?

        The French social theorist Michel Foucault wrote: "Look
everywhere for power, you will find it [and thus also oppression]."
        Intelligent design advocates/theorists might substitute for this
also: "Look everywhere for design, you will find it." (Hasn't someone
said this already?)
        Saying 'everywhere I look I see evolution' is just as myopic!!
        These views don't help scientists and they don't help religious
persons, even if they are well intentioned testimonies of how science
and religion are not in conflict in a person's individual understanding.
These three articles seem like 'I told you so's' aimed at anyone who
might find something useful in 'intelligent design,' perhaps some
courage, even if the theory/methodology itself is dubious.
        Are the articles considered 'good' because they are simply


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Received on Thu Sep 28 13:22:46 2006

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