Re: [asa] Empiricism, Faith and Science

From: <>
Date: Tue Sep 19 2006 - 11:02:59 EDT

> I (Wayne) wrote: "The main reason why science shuns this 'other' (the
> supernatural) is because we have no way to set up controlled experiments to
> examine it...So 'empirical' in the sense of 'experimental' knowledge of religious
> truths is basically ruled out in this picture because we have no means whereby
> to achieve interaction with it..."

[large snip] Vernon wrote:
Wayne, just recently - as I'm sure you've noticed - I've been attempting to
> attention to two paradoxes which TEs like yourself appear happy to live
> with; I have termed these 'a pilgrim's paradox' and 'the paradox of misplaced
> allegiance', respectively. Now it appears we have a third, viz 'the paradox of
data non grata'. In other words, a > self-evident truth emerges from the
> Judeo-Christian Scriptures (covered by the Apostle Paul's "All scripture...") which
> appears to be - indeed, can be conclusively proved to be - the outcome of
> _divine intent_; yet, apparently, no one in this forum sees it as being of the
> slightest significance whatsoever! But, the implications of this _real_
> event surely demand the urgent attention and close scrutiny of all who earnestly
> seek truth; wouldn't you agree?

Could it be that when one understands what the world is, and
understands that he need not cling to it, that the rest matters

I think it is the totality of scripture that makes it God
breathed and not, in of itself, the individual fragments of
letters, words or even paragraphs. What little I have to help
illuminate the scriptures is the quiet workings of the
holy spirit. A deep knowledge of Greek, Aramaic and Hebrew
along with a good understanding of the history of these ancient
civilization would be much better. Having no knowledge of
the languages, and only a surface knowledge of the history,
I am far too handicapped to say much on your observation.

It would seem to me, that whereas God could do what you are
claiming, it is not at all necessary for faith. The heavens
and the earth already speak to the Glory of God, and far more
loudly than seven words of scripture however well placed
and perfectly matching they may be.

However, my comments were not related to how I may personally
view scripture, they reflect how I must engage the world. Your
observation does not help me there. What I need is a device
to measure spiritual things, if I want to engage the world
of science. Do you have such an apparatus? Are you willing to
share it with Steven Weinberg (a well known atheist)? Will
you permit him to take it apart and examine how it works? Will
you allow him to build one of his own?

Or let's say that you don't have one, but you saw someone who
was using one. Did you get any information on how it worked?
Can we find this person? Have other people observed it working
and are their claims consistent. What is the financial, social,
economic, education back ground of the individuals who saw it?
How much information can they provide on how this device works,
and is it enough to find a way to make one of these things? And
it goes on....

If you can submit to this kind of scrutiny, then you would
be doing something of "science": the first being a hard
science, and the second being a hard-to-do science (like

However, I suspect you have no such device, and neither have
you seen anyone else who has one. The things you have seen
are the hidden ways that God answers prayer, the testimony
of other believers, perhaps your "observation", the fruits
of faith in a Godly people, and a host of other personal and
indirect information. It's not enough to prove, but just
enough that we don't doubt (too much at least).

We share a common Grace that comes from our Lord, Christ
Jesus, who, while we were yet sinners, endured a criminal's
death for our own sins. By Grace, we repented, there and in
many places thereafter too as we have walked our paths. It
is he who perfects us that we put our hope and faith in, that
one day, we may hear to our delight and relief "well done".


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Received on Tue Sep 19 11:03:26 2006

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