Re: [asa] dialog with YEC brethern

From: David Opderbeck <>
Date: Fri Sep 08 2006 - 09:47:15 EDT

Roger -- are most of the students you teach Roman Catholic? I'm not that
familiar with whatever inroads YEC has made into Catholicism. My
perception has been that YEC hasn't been big in Catholic circles except
maybe at the fringes, unlike in Evangelicalism where it's mainstream. Is
that not right?

BTW, was the "political term" something you edited out of my post that you
quoted? Was it the "wicked and perverse generation" thing? That reference
is to a phrase used by Paul in Phillipians 2:14-16, which I think is
appropos to our discussion: "Do everything without complaining or arguing,
so that you may become blameless and pure, children of God without fault in
a crooked and depraved generation, in which you shine like stars in the
universe as you hold out the word of life...."

Jesus also used a similar term often (translated "wicked and adulterous" or
"unbelieving and perverse" in the NIV) -- See Mathew 12 and 16, Mark 8, Luke
9, and Luke 11. The interesting thing about Jesus' references here (aside
from the question of whether "generation" is to be taken literally) are that
most of them relate to the Pharisees and Saducees. Jesus calls the
religious authorities wicked, adulterous, perverse.

I see a principle here, and throughout the NT: the "world" opposes God to
the point that God calls it "wicked," "adulterous," "perverse."
Self-appointed religious authorities who boast in their own position are
among the wicked and perverse. Our response is to patiently hold out the
truth without bitterness or complaint. By doing that we "shine like stars
in the universe."

On 9/8/06, Roger G. Olson <> wrote:
> Folks,
> This is an edited re-post from September 6. I had to edit out a political
> term from the quoted message.
> R
> --------------------------------
> I, too, in some sense am involved in this ministry. I teach at an RC
> college which has a "core" program including two courses on "Humanity in
> the Universe", which is basically a course about the various "evilutions"
> -- Cosmic, Biological, and Cultural in particular. (N.B. that chemical
> evolution or "abiogenesis" should also be included).
> My experience has been that students (97% in the 19-21 yo range) don't
> care to engage at all in the origins issue. This frustrates me. I'm also
> aware that more than a few of these students come from Fundamentalist
> backgrounds and do believe implicitly the YEC propagandist screed, but are
> unwilling to talk about their beliefs in an open forum. Bear in mind that
> street talk about me is that I'm a pretty congenial and cool prof who
> isn't intimidating and overly judgmental. The evidence for this is my
> "core" sections are oversubscribed (could mean I'm just an easy grader!).
> Maybe this is consistent with my views as an undergraduate in geology in
> the early 70s. What's scary is that I don't even remember what my views
> were back then! Either I was able to compartmentalize the faith/science
> areas or I was an omphalist of some sort. I dunno. This sounds dumb, as
> it is. I do know that I would have bristled if someone had questioned my
> faith.
> So what to do? It's a real mess. YEC is nonsense. The only YEC who posts
> here insults the faith of all TEs/YECs via his bibliomancy. Many YECs
> I've talked with on TheologyWeb or in real life stake their faith on this
> nonsense instead of the redemptive act of God through the Logos Christ.
> I feel like throwing up my hands since I'm old tired and bored with the
> whole thing. I concur with F. Schiller "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen die
> Goetter selbst vergebens."
> God's Peace,
> Roger
> > I think Bill, Merv, Iain, et al. are right. Yet I think Roger makes a
> > good
> > point about being clear in our position (as individuals if not as an
> > organization). There's a time and place for both approaches, and
> > a
> > question of culpability in how we employ each.
> >
> > Folks like Bill, Merv, Iain and myself are involved in work and ministry
> > with other believers who are at widely varying places in their
> > understanding
> > of the faith. We work in churches and organizations where much of the
> > leadership perhaps has been sympathetic to YEC for many years. Most of
> > these people we work and minister with aren't culpable concerning their
> > YEC
> > beliefs.
> --
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Received on Fri Sep 8 09:47:35 2006

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