Re: Genealogical Gaps?

From: David Opderbeck <dopderbeck@gmail.com>
Date: Tue Feb 28 2006 - 16:50:23 EST

I have God miraculously fix up a stillborn ape who had a chromosomal fusion
(we have less chromosomes than the chimps due to two chimp chromosomes
fusing together.)

I have trouble seeing how this is materially different from or superior to
the view you attribute to ID ("God used similar genetic systems from other
animals and miraculously created man"), particularly if "dust of the earth"
used by God in the special creation of man includes preexisting genetic
material in skin cells or hair sloughed off of an early hominid.

On 2/28/06, glennmorton@entouch.net <glennmorton@entouch.net> wrote:
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> Terry Gray wrote:
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> >>>Doesn't the MHC data rule out any single individual (or pair)
bottleneck--including your very ancient Adam? As I understand it some of the
polymorphisms go back to chimps.<<<
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> Which is precisely why one could KNOW 10 years ago that the mtDNA Eve was
NOT the genetic history of the world and why I have remained a
multiregionalist in the face of strong wind blowing the other way for quite
sometime (maybe Templeton will finally change things I still haven't heard
any response to my post where those ooA folks are--eerily silent on this
issue).
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> I have puzzled about this problem for a long, long time. It is not just
a problem for me, it is a problem for all views which hold to the
specialness of mankind. The lack of a bottleneck is worse than you paint it.
I have posted a quotation from Ayala here from time to time that says that a
bottleneck is ruled out for the past 30 million years. Thus, mtDNA Eve is
fictional nonsense. She is NOT the mother of all humans merely 100kyr
ago. So is any view which holds to a more recent Adam and Eve. And, so
would my view be if a solution can't be found.
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> Typically the responses are like this:
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> The YEC view says "The Bible is true regardless of what I or science
observes, thus genetics be damned full speed ahead."
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> The ID view says "God used similar genetic systems from other animals and
miraculously created man"
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> The TE view generally says: "The Bible teaches only theology all else is
accommodated science to the culture of the day—in other words, nonsense"
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> The atheist says: "The whole thing is false."
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> None of those are satisfactory to me although the one that actually fits
the facts is the last one. Thus, one must either explain this or go to the
last one. The only-theology solution is not satisfactory to me for reasons
recently outlined on this list.
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> In order to explain this, one must talk about the origin of man in my
view. Many may not know the odd way I solve our connection with the chimps.
I have God miraculously fix up a stillborn ape who had a chromosomal fusion
(we have less chromosomes than the chimps due to two chimp chromosomes
fusing together.) The would be no female for him, thus necessitating the
rib surgery. Thus, A&E are born. This explains the close pseudogene and
chromosomal structure problem. We share some amazing (but useless)
pseudogenes with the chimps and I can't figure out why God would do the
equivalent of what an auto designer would be doing if he welded a broken
transmission to the roof of the car. Yeah, it is designed,..... but....kind
of weird. Thus there must be a real connection between us and the apes.
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> The chromosomal fusion could have been naturalistic but I hold to the
miraculous because that is what the bible says. This type of fusion/fission
evolution is common among the mammals. Equiids of all types have different
chromosome numbers. Przewalsky's horse, the horse you see painted on upper
Paleolithic caves was found living in Asia. It has two more chromosomes
than the modern horse, yet they are able to interbreed and produce fertile
offspring. The reason is that the two chromosomes on Przewalsky's horse
align with the unbroken one of the Horse. This fact is important in
explaining the lack of a bottleneck which genetics clearly shows (although
most Christians ignore this evidence for no bottleneck in their rush to
believe mtDNA Eve.) One thing is certain. Placing Adam and Eve nearer our
time only worsens the problem with many other genetic systems, making us
have to have hypermutating gene systems to get the variability seen in
modern humans in some nuclear genes. It solves nothing.
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> Here is how I have figured out how to solve it. The flood is
anthropologically universal, but not biologically universal. The Nephilim,
existed before and after the flood. We interbred with them after the
flood. It is the only way to work the problem I have seen. The alternative
is to believe in a bottleneck without any evidence (a YEC response). We can
claim God created Adam 100kyr ago miraculously but gave our genes the
illusion of an age they don't have (a OEC view that rivals the YEC apparent
age argument). We can claim theology is all there is (which is a claim that
can be made by any religion in the world with scientific nonsense in its
teaching and is a quite ad hoc answer). We can claim it is all false. Or,
we can let the data speak and go where I go—which seems to be where no man
has gone before or wants to go. :-) So from Capt. Kirk, this is my answer.
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> This year I have made 6 trips across the arctic ocean so I have been very
jet-lagged. One of the benefits of living a jetlagged life is that one
wakes at 2-4 am and gets to lie in bed thinking a lot (which may be
dangerous). Last night I think I came up with an interesting variation on
the dynastic line idea for the genealogies. So, here is a new (I think)
variation on the dynastic explanation of the genealogies.
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> Lets say you have a lineage like this. The numbers are birth year, date of
being a father and death:
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> Joe 1,20,60
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> Samuel 20,45,50
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> William 45, 70,105
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> John 70,100,140
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> Sanjay 100, 120,150
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> George 120, 145, 180
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> Terry 145, 160, 170 (playboy, died of a disease)
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> Samuel 160, 185, 225
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> Dick 185, 205, 238
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> Now, as the genealogy became longer, memory became tougher so, originally
a memnonic was developed and the genealogy listed as:
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> Joe 1,20,60
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> The Samuels 20, 45,225
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> Dick 185, 205, 238
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> Then it was forgotten that Samuels is a group of people:
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> Joe 1,20,60
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> Samuel 20, 45,225
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> Dick 185, 205, 238
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> The genealogy would be true but abbreviated. And would give the false
impression that Sam lived 205 years. And, such a view would not make things
untrue. As I said earlier, the Day in 1888 that William Henry Morton
fathered George Washington Morton was the day he also fathered me (not that
he knew it). It would also not require dynastic interpretation of people's
names. The people are real people not dynasties.
>
Received on Tue Feb 28 16:52:19 2006

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