RE: mtDNA Eve and the determination of humanity

From: Dick Fischer <>
Date: Tue Feb 28 2006 - 11:58:43 EST

Hi Don, you responded to Glenn:
Not that I hold one specific way on the issue of patriarch ages, but
both of you could be right. While I do agree with Dick's view that Adam
is the spiritual (monotheic) first man, Glenn may also be right about
the age problem. If one were to consider that the ages are not
necessarily the person but rather the family line. This is used as a
dynasty (China), house (England), etc.
Let me revisit a point made earlier that I want to elaborate on here a
little further.
Terah is Abraham's father who had Abe and Haran. Haran died at Ur "the
land of his nativity". This ties both Abraham and his father Terah to
Ur of the Chaldees.
Here is an example at the bottom of ten generations where the narrative
makes it clear that Abraham is the immediate son of Terah. Let's look
at the language:
"And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran" (Gen.
11:26). "And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and
Terah died in Haran" (Gen. 11:32).
The language of who begot who appears to be literal - Terah begot
Abraham. Now let's look at the top end where we have enough
clarification from Scripture that we can also know who fathered whom.
Noah had three sons, Ham, Shem and Japheth. Genesis 9:8 says: "And God
spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him." Would there be any reason
to believe Noah's sons were other than these three? It says in Genesis
9:18: "And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and
Ham, and Japheth."
No question that Noah's sons were these. And Noah was alive and kicking
and able to lay a curse on his grandson which assures us that there can
be no intermediate generations between Noah and Ham and Canaan:
Genesis 9: 22-26: "And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of
his father, and told his two brethren without. And Shem and Japheth took
a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and
covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward,
and they saw not their father's nakedness. And Noah awoke from his wine,
and knew what his younger son had done unto him. And he said, Cursed be
Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. And he
said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant."
Canaan, Noah's grandson, must be contemporary with Shem and is first
cousin to all of Shem's sons. There cannot be extra generations between
Noah and at least the sons of Shem.
"These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and
begat Arphaxad two years after the flood" (Gen. 10:10).
Note the date of the flood is tied to the birth of Arphaxad which
establishes beyond doubt that Noah was alive at the birth of his
grandson. That's at least two named patriarchs, Canaan and Arphaxad,
that are said to be Noah's grand kids and they must be contemporary with
"And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat
sons and daughters" (Gen.11:11).
Who did Shem begat? It was Arphaxad. Shem's son is Arphaxad.
Arphaxad's father is Shem. (See for reference Dick, Jane, Sally and
Skip one generation down and compare the language:
"And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah: And
Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and
begat sons and daughters" (Gen. 11:12,13).
This is your first opportunity to insert a thousand or so unnamed
generations. Not one or two mind you, or a couple dozen, but a thousand
or more. Just think about that number and see if it makes any sense to
you. Ask anybody else if it makes sense. Is there anybody on this list
that thinks this makes sense? Is there anybody on God's green earth who
thinks this makes sense?
What this "expandable generations" explanation conjures up is the same
deceptive God idea that creationists use to posit the "appearance of
age" notion. God made the earth recently, but made it look old. In
that same vein, God gave us language to set us up to think that Arphaxad
was father to Salah, but that can't be true because we need some extra
generations to push Noah back into antiquity so we can have some way all
human beings could have sprung from Noah. Whaat?!
How can one be critical of YECs and then resort to the same methods they
I'm sorry, my good friend. I'm responding to Don, but I'm talking to
Glenn. I can't make this any clearer. If you don't see it, you just
don't see it. I tried.
Let's talk about Boston or something else. Finding any oil in Boston
Harbor these days?
Dick Fischer
~Dick Fischer~ Genesis Proclaimed Association
Finding Harmony in Bible, Science, and History
Received on Tue Feb 28 11:59:52 2006

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