Re: Gingerich-Behe-Hall

From: Gregory Arago <>
Date: Fri Feb 10 2006 - 10:40:54 EST

Please allow me to draw attention to a discussion that is happening (or happened) at the blog Telic Thoughts, which involves two YEC-IDists, an agnostic-IDist, myself and a few others, including atheistic anti-IDists. The topic seems relevant to some recent posts here at ASA, and in fact a late poster to the thread referenced an article in ASA’s Perspectives on Science and Christian Faith, which highlighted a Rule #1 of Science.
  In that thread, the Feb. 6th and 7th posts of Servetus were delayed/moderated and not posted until Feb. 9th. The issues raised include discussion of Michael Behe’s response to Judge Jones and whether or not ID is theologically irrelevant, in addition to questions of propaganda associated with the term ‘ID-creationism’ which initiated the thread.
  As usual, there is a fine line between giving 'creationism' or 'creation' a bad name.
  p.s. Thank you Ted: "[T]he God of our religion is the author of Nature." - Asa Gray
    p.p.s. 'Let the Games begin' - Feb. 10, 2006

Ted Davis <> wrote:

>>> Gregory Arago 02/10/06 7:11 AM >>>wrote:
5. Ted wrote that Behe and Asa Gray both accept(ed) that: "the biggest danger in evolution is that it can lead people NOT to draw the design inference." This logic seems wanting. It is design-centric, even while it may support the idea that evolution IS a scientifically valid theoretical approach; it identifies a door that can one day be open for 'design' theorists. It sets up a false dichotomy. Darwinian evolution was scientific at the time and many theists believe it is still scientifically valid in its current neo-Darwinian form. Evolution need not draw people away from religion, though it often does when taught by non-religious or irreligious scientists. By placing design and evolution in (biggest danger) opposition one is left with no other choice than conflict between 'those two concepts' to the exclusion of all others. This is as frustrating to me as it is likely George and others who are trying to challenge or expose the extremes on both sides of ID vs. evolution.

Ted replies:
Let me explain; rather, let Asa Gray explain in his own words, from Natural Science and Religion (1880):

The inquiry, what attitude should we, Christian theists, present to this
form of scientific belief, should not be a difficult one to answer. In my
opinion, we should not denounce it as atheistical or as practical atheism or as absurd. Although, from the nature or the case, this conception can never be demonstrated, it can be believed, and is coming to be largely believed; and it falls in very well with doctrine said to have been taught by philosophers and saints, by Leibnitz and Malebranche, Thomas Aquinas, and Augustine. So it may possibly even share in the commendation bestowed by the Pope, in a recent sensible if not infallible allocution, upon the teaching or "the Angelic Doctor," and make a part of that genuine philosophy which the Pope declares to stand in no real opposition to religious truth.
  Seriously it would be rash and wrong for us to declare that this conception is opposed to theism. Our idea of Nature is that of an ordered and fixed system of forms and means working to ultimate ends. If this is our idea of inorganic nature, shall we abandon or depreciate it when we pass from mere things to organisms, to creatures which are themselves both means and ends? Surely it would be suicidal to do so. We may, and indeed we do, question gravely whether all this work is committed to Nature; but we all agree that much is so done, far more than was formerly thought possible; we cannot pretend to draw the line between what may be and what may not be so, done, or what is and what is not so done; and so it is not for us to object to the further extension of the principle on sufficient evidence.

I trust it is not necessary to press this consideration, though it is
needful to present it, in order to warn Christian theists from the folly of
playing into their adversary's hand, as is too often done.

But I am aware that we have not yet reached the root of the difficulty. We are convinced theists. We bring our theism to the interpretation of Nature, and Nature responds like an echo to our thought. Not always unequivocally: broken, confused, and even contradictory sounds are sometimes given back to us; yet as we listen to and ponder them, they mainly harmonize with our inner idea, and give us reasonable assurance that the God of our religion is the author of Nature. But what of those -- you will say -- who are not already convinced of His existence? We thought that we had an independent demonstration of His existence, and that we could go out into the highways of unbelief and "compel them to come in;" that "the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world were clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made," "so that they are without excuse." We could shut them up to the strict alternative of Divinity or Chance, with the odds incalculably against Chanc
 e. But
 now Darwinism has given them an excuse and placed us on the defensive. Now we have as much as we can do, and some think more, to reshape the argument in such wise as to harmonize our ineradicable belief in design with the fundamental scientific belief of continuity in nature, now extended to organic as well as inorganic forms, to living beings
as well as inanimate things. The field which we took to be thickly sown with
design seems, under the light of Darwinism, to yield only a crop of
accidents. Where we thought to reap the golden grain, we find only tares.


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Received on Fri Feb 10 10:41:33 2006

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