Re: Kurt Wise on the creation crisis in Christian colleges

From: David Opderbeck <>
Date: Sun Feb 05 2006 - 12:14:44 EST

*...angels are spiritual beings *

And another thing to chew on -- what do we mean when we say angels are
"spiritual beings?" Doesn't that betray an unbibilical spirit-matter
dualism? Scripture tells us angels are created beings and gives them
physical charcteristics (e.g. in Isaiah 6:2, where the seraphs are pictured
with wings, faces and feet). Perhaps descriptions like those in Isaiah are
merely metaphorical, but nevertheless, these are real personal entities
created by God, and as Chuck noted, scripture also shows them interacting at
times with the "material" world. If angels are created beings, it seems to
me that they must be part of the universe God created, and if they are part
of the universe God created, that seems to raise interesting questions about
how much we really know about the universe.

On 2/4/06, Tjalle T Vandergraaf <> wrote:
> Dave Siemens wrote, "I note that none of the individuals Michael mentioned
> had access to radio-dating, for radioactivity was not discovered till
> 1896. I don't have a date for the discovery of the U-Pb series, but it was
> later. Now we have additional series that coincide to demonstrate
> antiquity." And "Since our understanding of the nature of nuclei gives a
> solid theoretical foundation to the computation of the timing of the
> release of alpha and beta particles and gamma rays, there's little hope
> that there'll be a revision because of a brass mirror. The fuzzy image
> refers specifically to the spiritual future."
> Yes, I know all that and the information obtained from the Oklo deposit
> presents a pretty airtight argument for an old earth. There *is* probably
> little chance that our current views will change but I still think that a
> certain amount of humility is warranted. My tack is to present the
> arguments for an old earth but also mention that our views are based on
> our current understanding.
> David Opderback responded, in part with, "Think about the huge slices of
> creation we have almost no understanding of at all: the nature of angels,
> demons, the "rulers and authorities," "the spiritual forces of evil in the
> heavenly realms" (Eph. 6:12) -- an aspect of the universe that scripture
> tells us is in some ways more immediate than the parts of the world we're
> able to perceive directly (e.g., Eph. 6:10-18)."
> I'm sure the topic of angles has been discussed before on the forum, but
> can anybody point me towards a source on angels? I've always assumed that
> angels are spiritual beings and yet, there are recorded instances where
> their spiritual realm and our material realm intersect, as for example the
> shepherds who heard the angelic choir at the birth of Jesus. A student
> once told me an interesting story where he was helping lift a heavy object.
> His co-worker slipped and the entire force of the object pressed down on the
> student. Just as he was letting go, he felt an "invisible force" help him
> lift the object. Yet there was nobody around. My student is convinced it
> was an angel. I'm sure you must have heard similar stories. What do we
> make of this?
> Chuck Vandergraaf
Received on Sun Feb 5 12:16:11 2006

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