RE: Kurt Wise on the creation crisis in Christian colleges

From: Tjalle T Vandergraaf <>
Date: Sat Feb 04 2006 - 22:34:13 EST

Dave Siemens wrote, "I note that none of the individuals Michael mentioned
had access to radio-dating, for radioactivity was not discovered till 1896.
I don't have a date for the discovery of the U-Pb series, but it was later.
Now we have additional series that coincide to demonstrate antiquity." And
"Since our understanding of the nature of nuclei gives a solid theoretical
foundation to the computation of the timing of the release of alpha and beta
particles and gamma rays, there's little hope that there'll be a revision
because of a brass mirror. The fuzzy image refers specifically to the
spiritual future."

Yes, I know all that and the information obtained from the Oklo deposit
presents a pretty airtight argument for an old earth. There *is* probably
little chance that our current views will change but I still think that a
certain amount of humility is warranted. My tack is to present the
arguments for an old earth but also mention that our views are based on our
current understanding.

David Opderback responded, in part with, "Think about the huge slices of
creation we have almost no understanding of at all: the nature of angels,
demons, the "rulers and authorities," "the spiritual forces of evil in the
heavenly realms" (Eph. 6:12) -- an aspect of the universe that scripture
tells us is in some ways more immediate than the parts of the world we're
able to perceive directly (e.g., Eph. 6:10-18)."

I'm sure the topic of angles has been discussed before on the forum, but can
anybody point me towards a source on angels? I've always assumed that
angels are spiritual beings and yet, there are recorded instances where
their spiritual realm and our material realm intersect, as for example the
shepherds who heard the angelic choir at the birth of Jesus. A student once
told me an interesting story where he was helping lift a heavy object. His
co-worker slipped and the entire force of the object pressed down on the
student. Just as he was letting go, he felt an "invisible force" help him
lift the object. Yet there was nobody around. My student is convinced it
was an angel. I'm sure you must have heard similar stories. What do we
make of this?

Chuck Vandergraaf
Received on Sat Feb 4 22:36:26 2006

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