RE: More for Dover

From: Tjalle T Vandergraaf <ttveiv@mts.net>
Date: Thu Feb 02 2006 - 17:27:47 EST

I sympathize with Ted et al. However, is it important "to win the audience
as well as the argument?" I have no experience with Hovind but I have been
involved in an occasional debate with "anti nukes" (people opposed to
nuclear power). I think it is more important to win over the audience than
to win the argument. Winning the argument may make the proponent (in this
case Hovind) look like the underdog and, in that position, he might garner
sympathy from the audience. Would it not be better to identify with the
audience and then question Hovind's position and have him explain the
inconsistencies? Or is this too simplistic an approach?

I teach an Earth Science course at a small, rather conservative Christian
college. Most of the students come from a YEC environment. I always make
sure I tell my students that, first and foremost, I'm a Christian for whom
Jesus died on the cross. Later on, when we get to the age of the Earth, I
present scientific evidence for an old earth. Not all students are swayed
from their YEC position, but I have never come across a hostile student (I
ask for written feedback from my students at the end of the semester that
they can submit to the administrative office which then forwards the
feedback to me after I have submitted the final grade for the course).

I look forward to Ted's experience "from the lion's den."

Chuck Vandergraaf

  

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of Ted Davis
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 2:09 PM
To: asa@calvin.edu; burgytwo@juno.com
Subject: Re: More for Dover

I've known this one was coming.

Not too long ago I spoke with one of the best scientists in the state, a
personal friend who is also a geologist. He told me about this, and he
apparently decided to duck it since they aren't advertising him as a debate
opponent (if that's the correct term) for Hovind. I had offered to appear
alongside him, despite my serious reservations about appearing on the same
platform with the person who is known to be the most slick (in the worst
sense of that description) of all the YEC evangelists. A Hovind tape was
played last fall in Dover, at a rally held at the firehouse in the center of
town, during the ID trial. Organized I believe by an outside party, as this
event apparently has been.

If there is an ASA scientist with expertise in relevant disciplines who
will accompany me, I'll contact the organizers and offer to appear vs
Hovind. The key in these situations is to win the audience as well as the
argument. Hovind ducks everything you throw at him, only to respond with so
much crap that you have to dig your way out before you can even start to
formulate a good answer. Thus, in his case, the best strategy is simply to
wait for one or two of his worst arguments (which I won't spell out in case
this post somehow gets to him, but I have in mind certain ones that he often
uses) and then take lots of time to explain carefully to the audience what's
wrong with them. Then show the audience that AIG even disowns this guys
arguments and then directly attack his integrity.

Nasty work, but badly needed IMO. Any takers?

This was precisely Harry Rimmer's strategy, incidentally. Make noise,
accuse the evolutionists of being chicken, then win the audience while
losing the argument in front of several hundred people who don't know enough
science to judge who actually won. And the more noise you make during the
"debate," the more likely you are to "win" it. Or so it seems, from having
studied several of Rimmer's "contests." Noise includes lots of humor
directed at evolution and those morons who believe that stuff.

Ted

>>> "burgytwo@juno.com" <burgytwo@juno.com> 02/02/06 1:30 PM >>>
Received e-mail follows:

Burgy

Date: February 2, 2006
By: Michael Marcavage
From: Repent America

Repent America to Bring Creation Seminar to Dover Area High School
(Pennsylvania); Evolutionists Lay Low

Repent America (RA), a Philadelphia-based evangelistic organization, is
bringing a creation seminar to the Dover Area High School next month,
featuring internationally known creationist Dr. Kent Hovind.

The Dover Area School District became known for its support of intelligent
design by ensuring that students were informed that evolution is "not a
fact." However, a federal judge ruled the practice unconstitutional because
of the possibility that students might come to the conclusion that the
intelligent designer is the God of the Bible. In addition, all of the
intelligent design school board members were voted out this past election,
adding to the disaster in Dover.

"The school board has been taken over by evolutionists who refuse to
continue the legal battle for truth, and who once again are teaching
students the lie of evolution as fact," stated Repent America director
Michael Marcavage. "We must not abandon the schoolchildren of America in
indoctrination chambers, but fight for the truth to be presented to those
trapped inside its walls. Repent America is coming to Dover Area High School
to do just that," Marcavage continued.

Dr. Kent Hovind, who is considered one of the foremost authorities on
science and the Bible, will be the event's guest speaker. The former high
school science teacher turned evangelist speaks over 700 times each year in
public and private schools, universities and churches. He has debated
evolutionists at many universities across the country and is dedicated to
the proclamation of factual, scientific evidence supporting the Biblical
record of creation and history of the world.

"Kent Hovind's exciting, fact-filled presentations are extremely
informative and highly educational, which will impact the lives of all those
who attend," Marcavage stated. "Christians will be strengthened in their
faith while the most devout evolutionists will sit up and take notice," he
continued.

"The event was initially scheduled to be conducted in a debate format, but
every evolutionist we contacted so far has refused to participate,"
Marcavage continued. "Evolutionists lay low when they actually have to
defend their beliefs, but when the floor is only open to them they will do
whatever they can to tell fables," he concluded.
Received on Thu Feb 2 17:31:06 2006

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