Re: Re: petition to amend ASA Constitutional Objectives?

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <>
Date: Wed Nov 30 2005 - 23:32:49 EST

Why are you so angry? It seems to me that you are not happy because not
all of the ASA members are engineers with the aim of constructing
something beneficial. What you propose may be highly desirable for
CEST--I have to leave that to its members to determine. The responses
I've seen and you reported are clear that it is not seen as desirable by
ASA members. You're free to petition. I have no say in CEST, but in ASA
I'm free to say I don't think your proposal wise. Your attitude
reinforces my opinion.

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 20:41:37 -0500 Joe Carson <> writes:
> Hello? Paul, are we on the same planet?
> The Pope and Catholic bishops have no authority to tell their
> congregants what they must do to be Catholics?
> ASA has no right to require its members agree to a statement of
> faith?
> ASA has no right to have objectives in its Constitution?
> No profession has no right to adopt and enforce a code of ethics?
> No religious leader has no right to dictate to anyone in their
> faith
> community what God wants them to do?
> Let's go forward with the change in the ASA objectives, because
> maybe
> the results of the effort will be exactly what you say, then there
> will not be as much question about it.
> Engineering is secular as it ought to be, but does that mean God is
> indifferent to it and indifferent to whatever Christians do within
> it?
> We are called to advance God's glory, in our stewardship of planet
> earth - with our minds, our bodies, and our mouths - that is much
> more relevant to our vocational identities, than "witnessing to the
> lost." Salvation is meaningless absent Creation - what did Christ
> come to save? So we have been restored to our original mission -
> advance God's glory by advancing His creation on earth, by
> employing our "image of God" powers of conscious thought,
> imagination, communication, abstraction, etc, while enjoying
> fellowship with Him. As we go about this, we are also to witness,
> not vice versa.
> That takes, I suggest, intentional and collective action by
> Christians in their spheres of influence (i.e. salt and light) -
> both
> individual and collective. But that can take putting oneself at
> risk
> in a most vulnerable way in a market economy - his/her career. That
> is something , that ASA members do not want to do, so we make
> rationalization after rationalization about it, we talk past one
> another, or claim God is too inscrutable to even collectively pose
> and respond to the question "what is God's will for the
> science/engineering profession and its Christian members."
> ASA is, now as ever, sterile by definition. No one can point to
> anything different in the engineering and science professions
> because
> ASA exists. Not one thing, because ASA has never intentionally done
> anything to be a salt and light influence in them. Not once in 60
> years, not in a world awash with weapons of mass destruction, a
> world
> in which religious persecution is widespread, a world in which 2
> billion people live on $2/day or less, etc. Nothing - what a
> witness.
> ASA will not even state that Christian faith is a valid reason for a
> Christian scientist or engineer to intentionally and collectively
> work with others in their profession to uplift and advance their
> profession and its service to humanity and the created order.
> ASA will turn itself into a pretzel to evade any rigorous effort to
> ascertain and advance God's will for it and its members, because it
> knows it may well get an answer it doesn't want to hear.
> Joe
> At 06:25 PM 11/30/2005, Paul Greaves wrote:
> >Hi,
> >I think you may be missing the point... I think the issue is that
> no one has
> >the right to dictate to someone else what God wants them to do.
> The best we
> >can do is to try to ascertain what God's will is for ourselves, and
> discuss
> >it amongst fellow believers. Your suggested wording implies a
> more
> >subversive approach to engineering, trying to impose a "Christian"
> set of
> >goals onto the science and engineering professions.
> >
> >I think that is the wrong approach... I think we are called to be
> witnesses
> >for Christ, reaching out to others in hopes of sharing our faith
> with them.
> >(Isn't here a Bible verse or two along those lines?) It is only
> through
> >reaching their hearts that we have any real hope in changing their
> actions.
> >
> >I see the ASA as a venue for us Christians to discuss amongst
> ourselves what
> >God's will is for our lives and our professions, not as a vehicle
> for
> >political change. (So I like the old wording better...)
> >-Paul Greaves
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: <>
> >
> >
> > > I appreciate the response, but disagree that God is so
> unscrupable,
> >random, and capricious that any effort to collectively and
> intentionally
> >ascertain His will is presumptuous...
Received on Wed Nov 30 23:40:45 2005

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