Re: Why sometimes I am ashamed to be called a Christian

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <>
Date: Sat Nov 12 2005 - 16:20:36 EST

What's with this nonsense of being nonjudgmental? Do I not read that
we'll know persons "by their fruits" (Matthew 7:16--note succeeding
verses and other passages). How can anyone check fruit without judging
quality? The much cited "Judge not" (7:1) does not stand alone, but
specifies that our judgment of others will be applied to us. What is not
to be tolerated is what was noted in the facetious declension of English
adjectives, illustrated by: I'm tenacious, you're stubborn, he's
pigheaded. The Chinese proverb of the baskets on the carrying pole also
fits, for it is more difficult for us to see our own faults.
Nevertheless, "God's gonna get you for that" is foolish and brings
reproach on the gospel. To fail to say this is not being nonjudgmental,
it's sitting on the truth and holding it down.

On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 15:42:37 -0500 "George Murphy" <>
All this talk about poor Pat, let's give him a break, finding excuses &c
forgets 1 important thing: His statement is a profound PUBLIC offence to
the Christian church, convincing many outside the Christian community
that Christians are stupid and vindictive & giving them just one more
reason not to take the claims of the gospel seriously.

Your attempts to guilt trip those who criticize Robertson miss the point.
 Robertson hasn't sinned against me personally & my forgiving him, which
I'm quite willing to do, isn't what's at issue. What is at issue is the
fact that Robertson's public statement is a misrepresentation of
Christianity, & the need for Christians to denounce & disown it (not him)

& I wonder if the same people who urge that we be non-judgmental when
Robertson & similar conservative Christians say things like this are
equally quick to do so when Spong et al make their silly statements at
the other end of the spectrum.

----- Original Message -----
From: Iain Strachan
To: George Murphy
Cc: ;
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: Why sometimes I am ashamed to be called a Christian

What I love about Christ'sm teaching is that it always cuts both ways, so
that whenever you start pointing the finger, you find the finger points
back at you - this applies as much to Pat Robertson, as it does to any of
us. I'm always reminded of the parable of the pharisee and the publican,
and often think how often when we read such a parable that we might
mentally think "How glad I am Lord, that you have not made me like that
Pharisee", thereby falling into precisely the same trap.

Yes, Pat Robertson said some stupid judgemental things there and on other
occasions, but it appears that he has also done a huge amount of good.
We're all in the same boat, and some pretty judgemental things are being
said about Pat Robertson here.

Remember, when you get all hot under the collar like this that when you
point the finger, it points back at you. As soon as you start accusing
someone else of being judgemental, you are being judgemental yourself.
And, George, what is it that makes you think that you can give a break
for the first offence, but not for subsequent ones? I thought one had to
go up to 490 (or was it 77?) before you could get away with condemning
someone? ;-)


On 11/12/05, George Murphy <> wrote:
It would be easier to give him a break if this were the first time.
Unfortunately it isn't - cf. similar comments about hurricanes as God's
punishment of Florida for accepting homosexuality.

& given his record, why think that he spoke "rashly"? What he said was
exactly the kind of pronouncement you make when you're rallying the

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Why sometimes I am ashamed to be called a Christian

Unfortunately, a Christian on TV who speaks rashly has these things
broadcast everywhere. I haven't taken Pat seriously since before his
failed presidential bid . But ashamed to be a Christian over this? Pat
Robertson's ministries have clothed, fed and given hope to more
helpless/homeless people hundreds of thousands of times more than
everybody on this list combined.

The American Center for Law and Justice also has helped many thousands of
Christians from being persecuted or discriminated at their jobs, schools
or businesses. If you've never been persecuted (beaten or threatened to
be fired) for your faith then you don't know how valuable some of his
ministries are. He also founded this. So give the guy a break.

Jack Jackson

In a message dated 11/12/2005 8:05:51 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, writes:
"I'd like to say to the good citizens of Dover: if there is a disaster in
your area, don't turn to God -- you just rejected Him from your city. And
don't wonder why He hasn't helped you when problems begin, if they begin.
I'm not saying they will, but if they do, just remember, you just voted
God out of your city. And if that's the case, don't ask for His help
because he might not be there."

--Pat Robertson, talking about the people of Dover, Penn., who voted out
school board members who had advocated adding discussions about
"intelligent design" to biology textbooks.

There are 3 types of people in the world.
Those who can count and those who can't.
Received on Sat Nov 12 16:26:24 2005

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