Re: God the interactor (was God the tinkerer)

From: George Murphy <>
Date: Tue Aug 30 2005 - 20:15:47 EDT

> All you re asking for is a distinction that the biblical authors did not
> make.

Perhaps you didn't note that I posed a broader question than that of a
distinction between 2 types of eternity. "More generally, what is the
 basis for claims that God cannot enter into time, that God is immutable in
all regards & cannot be affected by anything that happens in the world?"

> The same problem arose in the early church over the orthodox
> creeds. There were intense arguments, with some elements departing
> unconvinced. I believe there are still Nestorians.
> There is another matter in that I did not say that God cannot, but that
> the Creator qua Creator IS not in time--which is the point of your Latin
> quotation.

The quotation (it's from Augustine) is to the effect that God's origination
of the world was not in time.

> I see matters as drawing out the consequences of this citation
> It is obvious that the Redeemer entered time, becoming human.

Your term "the Redeemer" is ambiguous here. Are you agreeing that in the
Incarnation the 2d Person of the Trinity became a participant in the time of
our world?

> Note that
> I also was explicit that all time-space is open to the Creator. Nothing
> happens without his concurrence.
> I immediately grant that the concepts involved are not readily stated in
> human lanuguage. We do not have non-temporal terminology. But, if
> /exelexato hemas en auto pro kataboles kosmou/ (Ephesians 1:4) is pushed,
> God is /in tempore/ for there is a before and after to creation. This
> fits a multiverse but hardly a universe.

BTW, in regard to the earlier term "patripassianism" that you used in an
earlier post: What is problematic about the ideas associated with that term
is not 1st of all the idea that the Father could suffer but that it
expressed a variety of modalism in which the Father really could be said to
have been crucified. Tertullian, who provided the classic refutation of
that idea, also wrote (in _The Five Books against Marcion_) that "It is part
of the creed of Christians even to believe that God did die, and yet that he
is alive for evermore."

Received on Tue Aug 30 20:17:40 2005

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