Re: God the interactor (was God the tinkerer)

From: George Murphy <>
Date: Tue Aug 30 2005 - 16:03:48 EDT

----- Original Message -----
From: "D. F. Siemens, Jr." <>
To: <>
Cc: <>; <>
Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: God the interactor (was God the tinkerer)

> George,
> I can give you chapter and verse for the difference between divine and
> human eternity just as soon as you give me the reference for
> "homoousious" and "deipassianism." The fact is that, whether in Christian
> theology or Christian philosophy, we work out what we find (or think we
> find) in scripture. Lutherans, Calvinists and Zwinglians read the same
> scriptures and disagree on the nature of the eucharist. By the way,
> though the term was used by the Lord in the estblishment of the
> sacrament/ordinance, I don't think the ceremony was so named in
> scripture. As to eternity, I simply have to conclude that the Creator /ex
> nihilo/ cannot be in time, and that the creature cannot be outside of
> time. Only if God is a shaper of what exists independently of him or
> identically with him can he be in time. And that is not a creator.

Dave -

I asked you for a biblical basis for concepts and you dodged the question by
asking about the biblical use of specific words. I am not going to insist
on the use of the specific words "homoousious" or "eucharist" & certainly
not of "deipassianism" (which is a theological opinion, though I think a
good one). In turn, what I was asking you for was not the biblical use of
certain words but of concepts. More generally, what is the biblical basis
for claims that God cannot enter into time, that God is immutable in all
regards & cannot be affected by anything that happens in the world?

I agree of course that God did not create the world in the world's time:
Non est mundus factus in tempore, sed cum tempore. But I fail to see how
one can move from that to say that God could not enter into the time God
created, just as God could enter into the flesh that is his creation. & if
in fact God not could so enter into time it seems to me that there would be
serious doubts about the reality of the incarnation.

One ought always to be careful with sentences of the form "God (or the
Creator) cannot do X."


Received on Tue Aug 30 16:05:22 2005

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