Re: Snoke's response

From: janice matchett <>
Date: Sat Aug 13 2005 - 14:25:09 EDT

At 12:18 PM 8/13/2005, Gregory Arago wrote:

>... Likewise, if human beings are simply 'natural beings,' then everything
>we say, think, feel or do can be measured, observed, heard, tasted or
>experimented upon as if we are 'only natural' and thus limited to a
>naturalistic paradigm. Somewhere in the equation doesn't the non-theism or
>anti-theism of biological science, or even simply of Darwinian evolution,
>have to be called to account? ....."

### Have you heard about this "experiment", yet?

"...... science has after a fashion demonstrated the soul.

It doesn't have a tremendous amount of evidence there but this is an
interesting thing to ponder. When the brains of some people are opened they
can touch the brain with electrodes to stimulate different memories and the

This is why some people have argued that memories are merely a chemical
kind of response and don't have any relationship to a self, a separate
soul, a person other than the brain.

But when scientists have stimulated part of the brain and the patient is
conscious, the patient can actually tell whether a memory is being
stimulated by the scientist or whether the memory is being brought forward
out of their own consciousness.

They say, "Hey, you did that. I didn't."

This makes a very powerful point. "You stimulated that memory, I
didn't." Who's the "I?"

The "I" was the person inside there, the "I" is the soul.

So there's a distinction between a chemical response that produces a memory
and a volitional response that produces a memory. So it is not entirely
true that there is not scientific evidence for the existence of the soul
because there is some.

But there's another point that's actually quite a bit more important.

That's the fundamental point of whether science is the only road to truth.
And there are actually three different ways to refute that. And it's very
straight forward.

You can almost sum them up under one concept.

The idea is that if science is the only way to truth then science itself is
self-refuting because science is built on a series of truths that cannot be
demonstrated by science but must be in place even for science to be valid.

For example, is orderliness in the universe an illusion or is that real?

Is the external world knowable at all?

Are the intellect and the five senses reliable tools to examine the world?

Are values like "be objective" or "report data honestly" appropriate in the
scientific endeavor?

Is nature basically uniform?

Do numbers in truth exist?

Do the laws of logic apply to reality?

All of these things are non-scientific questions but they relate to the
issue of truth that must necessarily be in place for science even to be

So the point I'm making is that if you hold the belief that science is the
only thing that is a measure of truth, then science is in hot water because
science can't justify itself.

Science is not the sole arbiter of truth.

Ethics is another source of truthful information.

Philosophy is another source of truthful information.

History...Do you know that even mathematics is not scientific? Math is used
in science, it underlies science, but you cannot prove math scientifically.

So the point is this, its an empty claim by Dr. Sagan that the soul can't
exist because no scientific evidence has been produced to support the idea
that there is a soul.

There can be other kinds of evidence that are not merely scientific yet be
very valid. ......." ~ Gregory Koukl
Received on Sat Aug 13 14:27:23 2005

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