RE: Numerics

From: Glenn Morton <>
Date: Sat Jun 04 2005 - 22:59:55 EDT

OK, let me ask this. Which text should be used, the ancient one without any
vowels, or the 9th century AD Massoretic text with vowels? The Dead Sea
scrolls have two fragments of Gen. 1:1 with no differences from the
Massoretic Text save the vowels(?) I presume.


Also, what do we do with the letter error rate? From Wilkopedia "For
example, amongst the Dead Sea Scrolls
<> and fragments found at
other places in the Judean desert, there are some which differ from the
Masoretic Text in only about 1 letter of each 1000 letters. Of course, there
are also fragments showing a much larger difference."


Given the interest in numerology by the Medieval kabbalists, is it possible
that this interest is much older and that the original text was written in
such a way as to contain those geometric objects-say, a Hebrew version of
Pythagoreanism.? Grattann-Guinness may be right, but how would we tell?


If you as a mathematician, whom I respect and trust, tell me that the
geometries are something interesting, then why should one automatically
reject what Vernon is saying and go with a naturalistic explanation? Should
our first reactions to these sorts of things always be that God can't
possibly do anything miraculous and then rule that out by fiat?


My discussion of design on this list a week ago was basically aimed at the
concept that too many here believe that God can't engage in miracles and
that God can't possibly affect the physical world and leave evidence of
design. To me, what you write is an example of automatically rejecting any
divine influence on the physical world. But, on the other hand, I am not
going to accept just any evidence for design. I do not see biology as
evidence of design like the ID folks do, and I don't see numerology as
evidence of design like Vernon does. But, these geometries you speak of,
might be interesting. But one needs to be sure that this isn't something
that can be easily explained. I tried to use the first sentence of Pi in
the Sky to do a square like someone did here with Gen 1:1, but it didn't
work. However, I found his case unconvincing because of the number of times
that one character appears in the sequence.


Now, I reject the numerology based upon the fact that I can find such things
in many books, by chance (Pi in the sky was the first book I picked out of
my library). How does one quantify the probability that such geometries will
arise by chance?






From: [] On
Behalf Of Iain Strachan
Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 6:21 PM
To: Randy Isaac
Subject: Re: Numerics


I would like to point out that having taken the time to look in to Vernon's
work on the numerics, it is my opinion that there is much more to it than
either Glenn's parody, or much of Panin's work.

No-one so far has responded to Vernon's comment about coordinated
geometries. This is far more difficult IMO to write off as coincidence than
the accumulation of many multiples of 7 (or 5 in Glenn's case).

I realise that this may not be most peoples' cup of tea, and I have spent
some time myself looking into it before coming to my conclusions. I think
there may be principled scientific ways of explaining it (possibly using
Kolmogorov complexity theory), but I can't give a definitive statement as

I will state here, as Vernon already knows, that I do _not_ accept that his
discoveries in any way support a literal/historical interpretation of
Genesis Ch 1. Nor do I say it "proves" Divine Inspiration of the Bible.
That is one possible conclusion (that it's a watermark), but it could be a
human contrivance ( mathematician Ivor Grattann-Guinness believes this to be
the case).

This would be easier to discuss if one could first ask the question as to
whether it is deliberate design & then leave till later the nature of the
designer (who might or might not have a capital D).


On 6/4/05, Randy Isaac <> wrote:

With the recent exchange between Glenn and Vernon fresh in my mind, I was
intrigued when I read the following paragraphs in Alton Everest's history of
the ASA. Peter Stoner is one of the five founders of the ASA. He was a
mathematician and an astronomer.


"Peter Stoner's background in mathematics caused him to be incensed at a
book on Bible numerics he encountered. It was a popularization of Canadian
Ivan Panin's work entitled "Astounding New Discoveries" written by Karl G.
Sabiers. Stoner was able to confer with both Sabiers and his financial
backer, chemist Albert Nobell in the Los Angeles area.


"Panin's work claimed to prove the Bible inspired by assigning
conventionally accepted numeric values to the letters in the original
languages then demonstrating inspiration by an exceptional number of
additive combinations divisible by 7. Each such number was called a
"feature". Many combinations were considered: the number of words in a
passage, number of letters in a word, the value of each individual letter in
a word, etc. The number of features Panin found were far below the number
that should exist if taken at random. Panin had not considered the random


"Stoner's careful dealing with Sabiers and Nobell undoubtedly contributed to
Sabiers work fading from the scene. Who can forget Stoner telling, with a
twinkle in his eye, that by Panin's calculations he had computed that "The
Prologue to Evangeline" is more inspired than Genesis!"


The references cited are:


Letter, Peter W. Stoner to H. Harold Hartzler, 7 June 1947


Stoner, Peter W. "Dr. Ivan Panin's Work on Bible Numerics", Yearbook of the
American Scientific Affiliation, 1947.




There are 3 types of people in the world.
Those who can count and those who can't.
Received on Sat Jun 4 23:07:30 2005

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