Re: numerologyand Aaron's breastplate: was : It's no joke

From: Don Nield <d.nield@auckland.ac.nz>
Date: Thu Apr 14 2005 - 22:43:27 EDT

Hi Vernon:
I responded to you about the main point -- the names of the sons of
Jacob (Israel) -- not the later tribes of Israel in my last message. I
have just noticed that I also need to correct your mathematics. It is
permutations (with order counting) rather than combinations (order not
counting) that are relevant here. The first item in the array can be
selected in 12 ways, and once that has been done the second item can be
selected in 11 ways, and so on. Thus the number of ways of arranging the
12 items is 12 x 11 x 10 x 9 x 8 x 7 x 6 x 5 x 4 x 3 x 2 x1 , or about
half a billion, ways.
Also, you list Gad as 7th in the list. Why then is is his name
represented by the (2,1) position in the 3 by 4 array?
To me it looks as though the order in the array is a result of human
design rather than divine design!
Don

Don Nield wrote:

> Hi Vernon:
> We are talking about a passage in Exodus here. What happened later is
> irrelevant. A proper exegesis indicates that the names that are
> referred to in Exodus 28: 30 are the same as those listed in Exodus 1:
> 1-4, and would be written in that order.
> Don
>
>
> Vernon Jenkins wrote:
>
>> Hi Don,
>>
>> Thanks for your comments. The overall order of birth of the 12 sons
>> of Jacob (as detailed in Gen.29:31-35; 30:1-24; 35:16-18) is as
>> follows (mother's name bracketed):
>>
>> 1. REUBEN (Leah)
>> 2. SIMEON (Leah)
>> 3. LEVI (Leah)
>> 4. JUDAH (Leah)
>> 5. DAN (Rachel/Bilhah)
>> 6. NAPHTALI (Rachel/Bilhah)
>> 7. GAD (Leah/Zilpah)
>> 8. ASHER (Leah/Zilpah)
>> 9. ISSACHAR (Leah)
>> 10. ZEBULUN (Leah)
>> 11. JOSEPH (Rachel)
>> 12. BENJAMIN (Rachel)
>>
>> When the promised land was divided between the tribes (Nu.1), Levi
>> was excluded (Dt.10:8-9) and Joseph was represented by his sons
>> Manasseh and Ephraim. You will find these details are accurately
>> implemented in the disputed breastplate pattern.
>>
>> You wrote,
>>
>> 1. Exod. 28:30 says that Aaron will bear the names of the sons of
>> Israel
>> in the breastpiece --- not the names of some sons and some grandsons.
>>
>> A little earlier, in Ex.28:21, we read "And the stones shall be with
>> the names of the children of Israel...every one with his name shall
>> they be /*according to the twelve tribes*/." As we have seen, Levi
>> and Joseph inherited no land - hence they formed no part of the
>> twelve tribes. One should also remember that the descendants of Jacob
>> were collectively referred to as /*the children of Israel.*/
>>
>> 2. The order of entries into the 3 times 4 matrix is completely
>> arbitrary...
>>
>> Not so. The birth order has been strictly adhered to.
>>
>> ...Gen.35:22-26 lists the names of the sons of Israel, all 12 of
>> them. For example, Gad is number 11 on the list, and according to
>> Chapter 30 of Genesis he was the the second to last to be born.. Gad
>> codes to 7, and 7 is placed in the (2,1) position of the matrix., an
>> arbitrary position...
>>
>> You need to read this reference again; rather than an /*overall*/
>> birth order, what we have here is the birth order relating to each of
>> the 4 mothers. See my references and list above for the correct
>> interpretation.
>>
>> ...Even without considering substitutions of grandsons for sons,
>> there are factorial 12 (about half a billion) of ways of putting the
>> entries into the matrix, so it is not surprising that one combination
>> yields something interesting.
>>
>> Actually, the number of possible combinations is 4096 (i.e. 2^12).
>> What is surprising, surely, is that the remarkable features observed
>> involve the sums of /*contiguous groups*/ of breastplate array
>> elements. Further, you fail to take into account the other, earlier,
>> findings detailed in "An Oracle Restored". This may be found at
>> http://homepage.virgin.net/vernon.jenkins/oracle.htm
>>
>> Vernon
>> www.otherbiblecode.com <http://www.otherbiblecode.com>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Don Nield" <d.nield@auckland.ac.nz
>> <mailto:d.nield@auckland.ac.nz>>
>> To: "Vernon Jenkins" <vernon.jenkins@virgin.net
>> <mailto:vernon.jenkins@virgin.net>>
>> Cc: <asa@calvin.edu <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 1:04 AM
>> Subject: numerologyand Aaron's breastplate: was : It's no joke
>>
>> > Hi Vernon:
>> > The whole thing is very arbitrary.
>> > 1. Exod. 28:30 says that Aaron will bear the names of the sons of
>> Israel
>> > in the breastpiece --- not the names of some sons and some grandsons.
>> > 2. The order of entries into the 3 times 4 matrix is completely
>> > arbitrary. Gen.35:22-26 lists the names of the sons of Israel, all 12
>> > of them. For example, Gad is number 11 on the list, and according to
>> > Chapter 30 of Genesis he was the the second to last to be born.. Gad
>> > codes to 7, and 7 is placed in the (2,1) position of the matrix., an
>> > arbitrary position. Even without considering substitutions of
>> grandsons
>> > for sons, there are factorial 12 (about half a billion) of ways of
>> > putting the entries into the matrix, so it is not surprising that one
>> > combination yields something interesting.
>> >
>> > You, Vernon, may be impressed by this numerology but I am not.
>> > Don
>> >
>> > Vernon Jenkins wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Dave,
>> >> >> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. No, I can offer no
>> >> satisfactory explanation (risible, or otherwise), and freely admit
>> >> that you fellows have in your armoury weapons that continue to
>> present
>> >> difficulties for one of my persuasion. However, you in turn
>> >> must sometimes experience a twinge or two of doubt. Let me therefore
>> >> test you with a little matter that was drawn to my attention some
>> days
>> >> ago.
>> >> >> One of the principal reasons for the 'Mt.Sinai encounter',
>> recorded in
>> >> Exodus 25-31, was to instruct Moses as to the precise details of
>> >> construction of the portable sanctuary that would function as God's
>> >> dwelling place on earth - the tabernacle - together with its
>> >> furnishings, and manner of use. Concerning the high-priestly
>> >> vestments we read particularly of the /oracle/ - the Urim and Thummim
>> >> (Ex.28:30) - provided for the guidance of the people in difficult and
>> >> uncertain times. Details are lacking of the nature and use of these
>> >> items, but we are informed that they were held in a pouch - called
>> the
>> >> /breastplate/ (or, in some translations, /breastpiece/) - attached to
>> >> the front of the /ephod/ - the outmost garment of the high priest.
>> >> This breastplate was formed from a single piece of highly-embroidered
>> >> linen cloth one cubit long and half a cubit wide, folded over in two
>> >> to form a square, half a cubit by half a cubit (about 9in.x 9in). It
>> >> was adorned with twelve precious stones on which were engraved the
>> >> names of the twelve tribes - ie those of the sons and grandsons of
>> >> Jacob arranged according to their order of birth. These were set out
>> >> in four rows of three stones each (Ex.28:15-30). [Note: the names
>> >> 'Levi' and 'Joseph' are absent from this arrangement].
>> >> >> A fair alternative reading of the Hebrew of these tribal names
>> leads
>> >> to a rectangular array of whole numbers. 'Jesus Christ' is encoded 3
>> >> times in this array; by name, once in Greek and once in Hebrew; by
>> >> description, once in Hebrew. The details may be found here:
>> >> http://www.fivedoves.com/tng/gospelinstone.htm
>> >> >> Surely mysteries such as these must be accomodated by all who are
>> >> committed to the search for truth. I trust you would agree.
>> >> >> Vernon
>> >> www.otherbiblecode.com <http://www.otherbiblecode.com>
>> <http://www.otherbiblecode.com>
>> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message -----
>> >> From: "D. F. Siemens, Jr." <dfsiemensjr@juno.com
>> <mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com>
>> >> <mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com>>
>> >> To: <asa@calvin.edu <mailto:asa@calvin.edu> <mailto:asa@calvin.edu>>
>> >> Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 7:21 PM
>> >> Subject: Re: It's no joke
>> >>
>> >> >I just read a news item in /Science/, 307:1841 (25 March 2005), that
>> >> > radiocarbon dating has been calibrated back to "12,400 cal yr B.P."
>> >> using
>> >> > tree rings, and to 26,000 through corals and forminifera. The
>> original
>> >> > studies are in /Radiocarbon/, 46 (2005). Since an earlier
>> calibration
>> >> > brought out the explanation in the /Journal of the Creation
>> Research
>> >> > Society/ that bristlecone pines sometimes (~1 in 3 years ?)
>> produced
>> >> > double rings, and Vernon insists that nothing can be
>> carbon-dated older
>> >> > than 58,000 yr B.P., are we to recognize that every tree
>> produces three
>> >> > annual rings annually? Or is it that recognizing an old earth makes
>> >> > scientists either unable to count or to recognize growth rings?
>> Note
>> >> > that, on YEC/flood geology assumptions, tree rings must have been
>> >> > produced since the Flood, not since creation.
>> >> >
>> >> > I await the risible explanation, which contradicts the heading.
>> >> > Dave
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> >
>> > Donald A. Nield
>> > Associate Professor, Department of Engineering Science
>> > University of Auckland
>> > Private Bag 92019
>> > Auckland, NEW ZEALAND
>> > ph +64 9 3737599 x87908
>> > fax +64 9 3737468
>> > d.nield@auckland.ac.nz <mailto:d.nield@auckland.ac.nz>
>> > http://www.esc.auckland.ac.nz/People/Staff/Nield/
>> >
>> >
>
>
>
>

-- 
Donald A. Nield
Associate Professor, Department of Engineering Science
University of Auckland
Private Bag 92019
Auckland, NEW ZEALAND
ph  +64 9 3737599 x87908 
fax +64 9 3737468
d.nield@auckland.ac.nz
http://www.esc.auckland.ac.nz/People/Staff/Nield/
Received on Thu Apr 14 22:45:34 2005

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