Reply to Glenn's 9/11 post

From: <>
Date: Thu Sep 30 2004 - 12:40:05 EDT

A reply (partial) to Glenn's 9/11 post which replied to me.
JWB: > Why must there be a contest? If God wants to bring a Muslim
> person to God in some other way than He does you and me, that
> is of no importance to me.

GRM: It isn't a contest. It is a matter of what is God's will. If
can be saved regardless of what they believe, great by me. But that
then would be clear evidence that the communication which is supposedly
from God, at least believed by the Christians to be from God, is not
very reliable. It says different things.

JWB: No, it says what it says. One's INTERPRETATION of it often differs.
I refer you to the book IF GRACE BE TRUE by Gulley and Mulholland for one
interpretation which says, in the end, God wins (everyone is saved).
JWB: > The Christian God is a Trinity for good reason. The HS is the
> one that convicts and persuades. Not our vaunted logical capability.

GRM: I don't think the Muslims believe there is a HS. Who is right? Who
wrong? We can't hardly have one and not have one at the same time,
unless the HS is quantum-mechanical.

JWB: In this respect (belief that there is a HS, I firmly believe the
Muslims are incorrect. But their belief in the HS may well not be
necessary for their salvation.

> Glenn: "I will agree that we will never find absolute truth.
> But that doesn't mean, to me, that we should throw the towel
> in and not try for it."
JWB: > It is a goal, but as Polkinghorne points out, verisimilitude
> is as close as we, being finite beings, can ever hope to attain.

GRM: But that too often appears to me to be like beauty. It is in the
eye of
the beholder, which means that there are a multitude of truths all of
which contradict each other which isn't very logical.

JWB: Your claim in the second sentence above does not follow.

> Glenn: "But from what I have heard of a person who met him at
> the Utah foottrack site, I am not sure that Lang was
> interested in truth. And that is sad. The story I was told,
> I was told to keep to myself until this individual died. If
> that fellow outlives me, the story will go to my grave, but
> if the story is true (and I wasn't there), it is quite
> disturbing to me."
JWB: > Stories like that are necessarily hearsay, and are better

GRM: No, that one was the personal report of that individual. He was
in the conversation. Things like this are best NOT forgotten, unless one
doesn't care about truth.

JWB: For HIM to relate it might be OK. For YOU to relate it is
necessarily second-hand information, and therefore, since it denigrates a
person who has passed away, is highly problemmatical.
JWB: > It is my claim that when one begins to judge others, he/she
> is outside the will of God. And that action is all too
> prevalent among Christians. Once again -- we are WITNESSES.
> Not prosecuting attorneys!

GRM: If we are unable to make any discernment about the state of the
why would we judge people as being sinners? What right do we have to

JWB: We don't. That was my point.

GRM: John 14:6, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh
the Father, but by me. I fail to see where it says you can hold to a
religion which believes that one comes to the father through Mohammed and
still get to the father in Christianity.

JWB: It does not say that, of course. Neither does it say the converse.
You are back to binary thinking again.
JWB: Do not presume to limit God. <G>

GRM: Well, sure, God can do what he wants, but if God has no standards
salvation, why should we listen to Chrristianity.

JWB: Aha. I see something here. For you, Christianity is all about
salvation. All else is secondary. For me, Christianity is about a
relationship with the almighty. Salvation is a great part -- but I would
be a Christian even if eternal life were not a part of the package.

GRM: Can God save a muslim who turns to Christ? Yes. Will God save a
who doesn't? I doubt it.

JWB: I don't think God is consulting you (or me) on this.
GRM: You can have the last word.

JWB: I guess I just took it.



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Received on Thu Sep 30 14:33:58 2004

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