RE: The Curse - Upon All Creation or Just Mankind?

From: Mike Tharp <mtharp@exammaster.com>
Date: Sat Sep 18 2004 - 17:31:38 EDT

Hello Dave,

Yes, I agree that there is a tendency (don't know that it's necessarily
silly) "to equate anything one does not like with 'bad'. In fact, I agree
that physical death (for those who have accepted Christ as Savior) truly is
not a bad thing at all. But, of course, we perceive it as such because we
miss the companionship of a loved one.

"I have to believe that a world without pain would be a very bad world."
This is certainly true in our current fallen state (if all of creation is
under the curse as I believe it to be). If all was "perfect" and nothing
could go wrong, would pain then be necessary?

"Finally, Mike, I have to view your approach as the result of emotion, and
essentially knee jerk, rather than a rational consideration of the full
range of consequences of matters we do not like to face."

You may be correct. I have been called irrational on more than one occasion
and a "fool for Christ" once or twice. :-) In all honesty, I know I don't
have all the answers and I readily admit that I may be (and probably am)
wrong about certain things. I also admit that it can be hard for me to let
go of a long held assumption. I do try to remain open to other's points of
view, though, and open to the wisdom that my fellow brothers and sisters in
Christ have to share. I apologize if I come across any other way. That is
not my intention.

In Christ,
Mike

 

-----Original Message-----
From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. [mailto:dfsiemensjr@juno.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:24 PM
To: mtharp@exammaster.com
Cc: asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: The Curse - Upon All Creation or Just Mankind?

On Sat, 18 Sep 2004 12:13:04 -0400 "Mike Tharp" <mtharp@exammaster.com>
writes:
> I believe there is a possibility that carnivores were originally
> herbivores.
> Today, the diet of some bears consists primarily of berries and
> other
> vegetable matter. I don't see a huge problem with this. Plant
> life, which
> does not have "nephesh" life, would have died prior to the Fall as
> is
> obvious since it was a source of food. So fungi and bacteria could
> have
> decomposed dead vegetation.
>
First, bears are normally omnivores and have the guts for a mixed diet.
Same is true of human beings. Obligate carnivores, like the Felidae, have
very short intestines. Herbivores have guts an order of magnitude longer.
Unless you are going to argue that "dinosaurs" are a recent creation,
there were herbivores and carnivores among them. Or are they without
"nephesh life"? For that matter, there were carnivores in the Cambrian
seas.

> Yes, I do believe the pre-Fall Earth was significantly different in
> the way
> it functioned. Perhaps there are detectable hints to this in the
> record God
> left behind but we are sometimes blind to or misinterpret them. Or
> perhaps
> I'm the one who is wrong. I'm open to that possibility. But if
> there was
> disease and bloodshed prior to the Fall, I don't see how God could
> call that
> "very good". Then again, if there was death and suffering before
> the fall
> and God called it "very good", who am I to argue with him?
>
I won't elaborate Jim's points on the necessity of death. But I must note
that there is a silly tendency to equate anything one does not like with
"bad." So death, which separates human beings, is very bad. I was at a
funeral this week. After 54 years of happy marriage, the widow was
devastated, even with the assurance that "he is in a better place." But I
have seen tears when the separation is expected to be only temporary, not
for the duration of terrestrial life. We miss friends, let alone mates
and other family members. But recall Swift's Struldbruggs (or something
like that) who lived forever. The birth of one called for mourning.

Pain is also labeled "bad" to "very bad." However, pain is the best
warning we have that something is wrong and we need to tend to it now.
One of the biggest problems that lepers have is that they do not feel
pain and therefore suffer grievous injury without awareness. While it is
true that pain can get out of hand and become chronic, I have to believe
that a world without pain would be a very bad world.

> In Christ,
> Mike
>
Finally, Mike, I have to view your approach as the result of emotion, and
essentially knee jerk, rather than a rational consideration of the full
range of consequences of matters we do not like to face.
Dave
Received on Sat Sep 18 17:54:33 2004

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