RE: The Curse - Upon All Creation or Just Mankind?

From: Mike Tharp <mtharp@exammaster.com>
Date: Sat Sep 18 2004 - 17:31:38 EDT

Interesting questions. Food for thought. I'm still not convinced that
death was present before the fall, though. Sorry!

Have a great remainder of the weekend!

In Christ,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: jack syme [mailto:drsyme@cablespeed.com]
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 4:11 PM
To: Mike Tharp; asa@calvin.edu
Subject: Re: The Curse - Upon All Creation or Just Mankind?

Death was present before the fall yes. Suffering? No, that is part of post
lapsarian creation.

This leads to a question, do animals suffer? Or is this a post fall human
affliction only? Pain is not the same as suffering.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Tharp" <mtharp@exammaster.com>
To: <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 3:46 PM
Subject: RE: The Curse - Upon All Creation or Just Mankind?

> Yes, I have considered the possibility that "the idea that death and
> suffering is a bad thing is solely our perspective as living sentient
beings
> within the framework of creation." And if death and suffering were part
of
> the original creation and God called it very good, I am certainly in no
> position to argue with Him. However, I still believe that there was no
> death and suffering prior to the Fall.
>
> "Consider also the consequences of reproduction without death. It's an
easy
> spreadsheet thing to verify that the world would be grossly overpopulated
in
> a remarkably few generations." That's a good point and I really don't
have
> an answer other than so suggest that perhaps God would have rescinded His
> command to "multiply" once the earth was adequately "subdued". Of course,
> this is mere speculation as there's nothing in Scripture to suggest that
> would have been the case.
>
> "Cell death is necessary or we have cancer everywhere. We slough dead
> cells." It's possible that cell death was not necessary prior to the
Fall.
> However, individual cells, like that of plant life, would not be
considered
> "nephesh" and therefore I wouldn't see a problem with cell death prior to
> the Fall.
>
> In Christ,
> Mike
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of jarmstro@qwest.net
> Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2004 12:58 PM
> To: asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: RE: The Curse - Upon All Creation or Just Mankind?
>
> It might be the case that the idea that death and suffering is a bad thing
> is solely our perspective as living sentient beings within the framework
of
> creation.
> The evidence seems to be that death is an inextricable and ubiquitous part
> of creation. It drives the very process of evolutionary change.
> Consider also the consequences of reproduction without death. It's an
easy
> spreadsheet thing to verify that the world would be grossly overpopulated
> in a remarkably few generations.
> Cell death is necessary or we have cancer everywhere. We slough dead
cells.
> We eat living matter. ...and so on.
> We may very well have the value system for death and dying quite wrong
from
> the standpoint of how Creation runs and what its objectives are.
> We might also have to reconsider our protest in light of our desires to be
> surrendered to God's purposes.
> Ouch! JimA
>
> Original Message:
> -----------------
> From: Mike Tharp mtharp@exammaster.com
> Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:22:18 -0400
> To: drsyme@cablespeed.com, alexanian@uncw.edu, gmurphy@raex.com,
> Dawsonzhu@aol.com, sheila-wilson@sbcglobal.net, asa@calvin.edu
> Subject: The Curse - Upon All Creation or Just Mankind?
>
>
> In Genesis 3:17, God tells Adam, "cursed is the ground for thy sake". The
> ground would be the earth, so the entire earth is cursed, no? Verse 18
goes
> on to say, "Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth." This seems to
> indicate that there was some change in at least plant life after the Fall.
>
> In Romans 8:22, Paul writes, "For we know that the whole creation groaneth
> and travaileth in pain together until now." This verse seems to indicate
> that the entire creation was cursed, not mankind alone.
>
> I would have to agree, though, that "nowhere in scripture does it say that
> death, came to all of creation after the fall, only death to man."
However,
> I also agree with the argument that, if there were death and suffering
> before the fall, it seems strange that God would call such a creation
"very
> good." That death and suffering, both of man and animals, are a result of
> the Fall seems to make sense to me.
>
> In Christ,
> Mike
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
> Behalf Of jack syme
> Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 4:12 PM
> To: Alexanian, Moorad; George Murphy; Dawsonzhu@aol.com; Sheila Wilson;
> AmericanScientificAffiliation
> Subject: Re: flying saucer
>
> CS Lewis, as much as I like him, does not have the authority of scripture.
>
> If you look carefully at Old Testament, and New Testament passages of the
> effects of the fall on creation, it is limited to its effects on mankind,
> with the exception that the serpent was made to crawl on its belly.
> Otherwise the effects are, pain in childbirth, and mankind having to work
> the soil to get it to produce. Which I guess is some effect on creation
> other than mankind. And death to man.
>
> But, nowhere in scripture does it say that death, came to all of creation
> after the fall, only death to man. And Christ's death and resurrection
was
> to save man, not sub human creation; to reverse the death brought by
Adam.
>
> My belief, is that the fall caused death to come to mankind. And by that
I
> mean spiritual death, a seperation from God, banishment from the garden,
> away from the tree of life. And that creation now is, with a few notable
> exceptions, not essentially different than it was prior to the fall.
Other
> than the blemishes our behaviors have given it.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
> To: <drsyme@cablespeed.com>; "George Murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com>;
> <Dawsonzhu@aol.com>; "Sheila Wilson" <sheila-wilson@sbcglobal.net>;
> "AmericanScientificAffiliation" <asa@calvin.edu>
> Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 12:24 PM
> Subject: RE: flying saucer
>
>
> > C.S. Lewis wrote: "Man is to be understood only in his relation to God.
> The beasts are to be understood only in their relation to man and, through
> man, to God." It is safe to say that man's redemption allows for the
> restoration of the animal kingdom to its original form--whatever that was.
> >
> > Moorad
> >
> > ________________________________
> >
> > From: drsyme@cablespeed.com [mailto:drsyme@cablespeed.com]
> > Sent: Fri 9/17/2004 11:33 AM
> > To: Alexanian, Moorad; drsyme@cablespeed.com; George Murphy;
> Dawsonzhu@aol.com; Sheila Wilson; AmericanScientificAffiliation
> > Subject: Re: flying saucer
> >
> >
> >
> > Christ? Are you claiming that he came to save animals
> > too?
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:03:47 -0400
> > "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu> wrote:
> > >Christ.
> > >
> > >Moorad
> > >
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: drsyme@cablespeed.com
> > >[mailto:drsyme@cablespeed.com]
> > >Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:55 AM
> > >To: Alexanian, Moorad; George Murphy; Dawsonzhu@aol.com;
> > >Sheila Wilson;
> > >AmericanScientificAffiliation
> > >Subject: Re: flying saucer
> > >
> > >On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:46:02 -0400
> > > " My statement meant
> > >>that man cannot
> > >>by himself reverse the consequences of the Fall, which I
> > >>believe also
> > >>affect the animals.
> > >>
> > >>Moorad
> > >>
> > >
> > >What biblical evidence do you have to support this
> > >belief?
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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Received on Sat Sep 18 17:50:58 2004

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