RE: The Curse - Upon All Creation or Just Mankind?

From: <jarmstro@qwest.net>
Date: Sat Sep 18 2004 - 12:57:58 EDT

It might be the case that the idea that death and suffering is a bad thing
is solely our perspective as living sentient beings within the framework of
creation.
The evidence seems to be that death is an inextricable and ubiquitous part
of creation. It drives the very process of evolutionary change.
Consider also the consequences of reproduction without death. It's an easy
spreadsheet thing to verify that the world would be grossly overpopulated
in a remarkably few generations.
Cell death is necessary or we have cancer everywhere. We slough dead cells.
We eat living matter. ...and so on.
We may very well have the value system for death and dying quite wrong from
the standpoint of how Creation runs and what its objectives are.
We might also have to reconsider our protest in light of our desires to be
surrendered to God's purposes.
Ouch! JimA

Original Message:
-----------------
From: Mike Tharp mtharp@exammaster.com
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2004 10:22:18 -0400
To: drsyme@cablespeed.com, alexanian@uncw.edu, gmurphy@raex.com,
Dawsonzhu@aol.com, sheila-wilson@sbcglobal.net, asa@calvin.edu
Subject: The Curse - Upon All Creation or Just Mankind?

In Genesis 3:17, God tells Adam, "cursed is the ground for thy sake". The
ground would be the earth, so the entire earth is cursed, no? Verse 18 goes
on to say, "Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth." This seems to
indicate that there was some change in at least plant life after the Fall.

In Romans 8:22, Paul writes, "For we know that the whole creation groaneth
and travaileth in pain together until now." This verse seems to indicate
that the entire creation was cursed, not mankind alone.

I would have to agree, though, that "nowhere in scripture does it say that
death, came to all of creation after the fall, only death to man." However,
I also agree with the argument that, if there were death and suffering
before the fall, it seems strange that God would call such a creation "very
good." That death and suffering, both of man and animals, are a result of
the Fall seems to make sense to me.

In Christ,
Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu] On
Behalf Of jack syme
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 4:12 PM
To: Alexanian, Moorad; George Murphy; Dawsonzhu@aol.com; Sheila Wilson;
AmericanScientificAffiliation
Subject: Re: flying saucer

CS Lewis, as much as I like him, does not have the authority of scripture.

If you look carefully at Old Testament, and New Testament passages of the
effects of the fall on creation, it is limited to its effects on mankind,
with the exception that the serpent was made to crawl on its belly.
Otherwise the effects are, pain in childbirth, and mankind having to work
the soil to get it to produce. Which I guess is some effect on creation
other than mankind. And death to man.

But, nowhere in scripture does it say that death, came to all of creation
after the fall, only death to man. And Christ's death and resurrection was
to save man, not sub human creation; to reverse the death brought by Adam.

My belief, is that the fall caused death to come to mankind. And by that I
mean spiritual death, a seperation from God, banishment from the garden,
away from the tree of life. And that creation now is, with a few notable
exceptions, not essentially different than it was prior to the fall. Other
than the blemishes our behaviors have given it.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu>
To: <drsyme@cablespeed.com>; "George Murphy" <gmurphy@raex.com>;
<Dawsonzhu@aol.com>; "Sheila Wilson" <sheila-wilson@sbcglobal.net>;
"AmericanScientificAffiliation" <asa@calvin.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 12:24 PM
Subject: RE: flying saucer

> C.S. Lewis wrote: "Man is to be understood only in his relation to God.
The beasts are to be understood only in their relation to man and, through
man, to God." It is safe to say that man's redemption allows for the
restoration of the animal kingdom to its original form--whatever that was.
>
> Moorad
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: drsyme@cablespeed.com [mailto:drsyme@cablespeed.com]
> Sent: Fri 9/17/2004 11:33 AM
> To: Alexanian, Moorad; drsyme@cablespeed.com; George Murphy;
Dawsonzhu@aol.com; Sheila Wilson; AmericanScientificAffiliation
> Subject: Re: flying saucer
>
>
>
> Christ? Are you claiming that he came to save animals
> too?
>
>
> On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 10:03:47 -0400
> "Alexanian, Moorad" <alexanian@uncw.edu> wrote:
> >Christ.
> >
> >Moorad
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: drsyme@cablespeed.com
> >[mailto:drsyme@cablespeed.com]
> >Sent: Friday, September 17, 2004 9:55 AM
> >To: Alexanian, Moorad; George Murphy; Dawsonzhu@aol.com;
> >Sheila Wilson;
> >AmericanScientificAffiliation
> >Subject: Re: flying saucer
> >
> >On Fri, 17 Sep 2004 08:46:02 -0400
> > " My statement meant
> >>that man cannot
> >>by himself reverse the consequences of the Fall, which I
> >>believe also
> >>affect the animals.
> >>
> >>Moorad
> >>
> >
> >What biblical evidence do you have to support this
> >belief?
>
>
>

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