Re: Fw: Shapes of a Wedge

From: D. F. Siemens, Jr. <>
Date: Sat May 29 2004 - 00:07:25 EDT

On Fri, 28 May 2004 13:38:12 -0600 Innovatia <>
> From: "D. F. Siemens, Jr." <>
> > Dennis,
> > Your first paragraph runs into trouble with I Peter 2:13ff; Titus
> 3:1;
> > Romans 13:1ff. Only when the state directly demands disobedience
> to God's
> > command (where is the express command about marriage?) is one to
> reject
> > the state and take the penalty. I have not encountered a passage
> that
> > advocates anarchy, though there are some that describe near
> anarchy.
> Agreed about anarchy. The two govt texts you cited clearly affirm a
> certain
> kind of govt, one which upholds God's law - i.e., punishes evil,
> encourages
> good.
Yes, Brother, this good government was that of Nero, for all three
epistles were written during his reign. By your qualification, I'd say
that you are adding to scripture.

> In going beyond its biblical bounds, the State conflicts directly
> with
> Deuteronomy 4:2:
> Deut. 4:2 (ESV)
> You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from
> it, that
> you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command
> you.
> and Deut. 12:32:
> Deut. 12:32 (ESV)
> "Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You
> shall
> not add to it or take from it.
> > This, with not "taking away from or adding to his law" means that
> you are
> > disobeying God if you do not stone adulterers or homosexuals. I
> expect
> > you, therefore, to stone to death the next individuals you know
> involved
> > in either of these sins and to accept the condemnation and legal
> penalty
> > for the first degree murder.
> Biblical law for Christians applies as it is understood in view of
> the
> gospel. There may be grounds for forgiveness. All the same, a truly
> biblical
> government would uphold the whole counsel of God, not selectively,
> as befits
> our contemporaneous moral sensibilities. As Paul says, the govt does
> not
> bear the sword in vain.
In other words, when things get sticky, revise. YOU MUST NOT TAKE ONE JOT

> > Are you wrong in selectively citing scripture and twisting it to
> your
> > intent, deliberately disobedient, or it was nice to know you?
> I don't follow this, Dave. Where is the twisting? The scriptures do
> say, do
> they not, that we are to follow Christ, not the world-system as
> manifested
> in ungodly behavior of government instututions? And do we not do
> that by
> taking heed to God's revealed will in scripture? That is basically
> my
> intent.
I do not fault your intent. But I think I have made it clear that you are
altering what you claim scripture requires while also claiming that the
Mosaic code applies to us unconditionally. What you cite from Deuteronomy
clearly applies to the theocracy of Israel. But that fell apart almost
immediately, as evidenced by Judges. It was further eroded during the
early kngdom. Now you want it modified further, but accepted unchanged.
You can't have it both ways.

> I have spent considerable time the last few years studying the
> various ways
> in which we as Christians are entangled with the institutions of
> American
> society, and my conclusion is that that these relationships are long
> overdue
> for a careful review - which is part 2 of XLM, by the way.
> Saludos,
> Dennis Feucht
On this I will agree. But the answer to the problem is not to try to
establish a theocracy but to obey Romans 12:1f. In other words, the
correction is personal and within the body of Christ. You cannot even
modify the unbelieving church which reformulates scripture to meet their
attitudes, let alone the broader society which does not accept biblical
authority. I think of a couple groups which recognized that they could
not change the majority to their mores. So there was a Mennonite enclave
in Mexico, and one in Paraguay, where they did not have to interact with
the wicked world. But you're going to fix it for them by establishing a
theocracy. If you do it also in Canada, the Mennonite groups can go back
to where they lived before emigrating.

Another small problem struck me. How do you apply the strict commandment
of Leviticus 20:10 in the light of Matthew 5:27f, 31f? I think your
principle is that you can't fudge on the Mosaic Law except as it is
modified by Christ.

Que le vaya bien (which won't happen when you stone the first adulterer
or adulterous pair),
Received on Sat May 29 00:23:50 2004

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