Re: The Whole Bible Revealed in Zechariah (was Re: NT truth (formerly inerrancy?))

From: Don Winterstein <dfwinterstein@msn.com>
Date: Wed Jan 14 2004 - 05:31:21 EST

Richard,

I agree that we've been talking past each other rather than communicating, and I don't understand why. To me my arguments seem so obvious as not to need elaboration. Hence I've probably not devoted the required degree of careful analysis and exposition needed to make my points clear to you. Unfortunately I have so much difficulty understanding why you don't see things my way that I have no insight into what my arguments lack. I suppose this is another case of irreconcilable differences such as that of YEC/OEC: apparently we have radically different presuppositions.

Despite this mystery, I consider the topic to be an important one and therefore will respond this one last time, just so I can say I had the last word. : - )

Richard: I quote 2 Tim 3.15f:

And that from a child thou hast known THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to
make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All
SCRIPTURE is given by INSPIRATION OF GOD, and is profitable for doctrine,
for reproof,....

Don: I accept the divine inspiration of Scriptures but contend that does not make them equivalent to the Word of God. That the OT Scriptures can give you faith in Jesus is quite a claim, but the claim is consistent with Paul's common emphasis on Jesus as fulfillment of such Scriptures. OT Scriptures would certainly not do that for everyone, and they're much more likely to do that for a person in hindsight, after his coming to know of Jesus' ministry, than otherwise. Only the Word of God can give a person faith in Jesus, so Paul is indeed saying that the Scriptures can function as the Word of God. But I've always acknowledged that possibility; I stated at the outset that the prophecy of Jeremiah (i.e, Scripture) became the Word of God to me. Its power to become so, however, does not make me turn around and declare _all_ Scriptures to be _identical_ to the Word of God. That portion of Scripture (Jeremiah) served a special purpose for me at a special time, just as Timothy's coming to faith in Jesus through Scriptures (if indeed that's what happened) was a special instance of Scriptures becoming the Word for Timothy.

Richard: ...Consider what he wrote in 2 Cor 4:

But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in
craftiness, nor *handling* the WORD OF GOD deceitfully; but by manifestation
of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of
God.

The key here is that Paul has made the Word of God the OBJECT of his
*handling*.

Don: This KJ translation is unfortunate. The phrase "nor handling the WORD OF GOD deceitfully" when properly translated becomes simply "nor corrupting the word of God." Paul considered his preaching to be the Word of God, and he asserts here that his preaching was done with proper adherence to the truth. Apparently KJ translators fixated on the noun /dolos/, which means deceit, and were not aware that the cognate verb in the text does not mean "deceive" but "corrupt." There is no word for "handling," and there are no variant readings. In any case, Paul is not talking about Scripture but about his preaching.

Here's one more case to consider: If any people should consider Scriptures to be the Word of God, it should be the OT Jews with respect to the laws that came through Moses. After all, according to the Pentateuch, God dictated those laws verbatim, and they applied directly to all Israelites. But what does Hilkiah, high priest at the time of Josiah, say when he found the apparently long-lost Scriptures? Not: "I have found the Word of God," but rather, "I have found the Book of the Law...." (2 Kings 22). Later on, after Josiah heard those Scriptures and was deeply moved by them, according to the Chronicles account he called them the word of the Lord. Upon hearing the Scriptures Josiah regarded them as the word of the Lord, but before hearing them, they were simply the Book of the Law. What was just a book became the Word as he heard it read. This is consistent with my contention that Scriptures can become the Word if and when they act on a person.

Don

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: richard@biblewheel.com
  To: Don Winterstein ; Gary Collins ; asa@lists.calvin.edu
  Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 12:34 PM
  Subject: Re: The Whole Bible Revealed in Zechariah (was Re: NT truth (formerly inerrancy?))

  Hi Don,

  I appreciate your perserverence, but I weary of the ping-pong style
  point-counterpoint since it feels like we are just talking past each other.

  It seems to me that Scripture makes it perfectly clear that Paul believed
  the OT Scriptures to be the Word of God. I quote 2 Tim 3.15f:

  And that from a child thou hast known THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, which are able to
  make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All
  SCRIPTURE is given by INSPIRATION OF GOD, and is profitable for doctrine,
  for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man
  of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

  Paul believed that (at least some of) the OT Scriptures were "inspired of
  God." I have no reason to believe that he would have had any problem calling
  them "The Word of God." For example, consider what he wrote in 2 Cor 4:

  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in
  craftiness, nor *handling* the WORD OF GOD deceitfully; but by manifestation
  of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of
  God.

  The key here is that Paul has made the Word of God the OBJECT of his
  *handling*. He is not talking about the "physcial manifestation of the power
  of God" nor is he talking about the "action of God on his creation
  accompanied by a response on the part of some portion of that creation" as
  you put it in your last post to George. Paul is talking about something he
  can handle correctly or incorrectly, something he can study, something he
  can "divide" rightly or wrongly. He is NOT talking about an "action of God"
  or a "manifestation of the power of God." He is talking about Holy
  Scripture.

  Well, that's my point. I think I've adequately articulated it. I understand
  your point. I just happen to believe it is wholly inadequate as a theology
  of the Word. But that's OK! We can both live with that. I doubt I would want
  to persue this particular detail any further. But I would be delighted if
  you wanted to return to the original point of this thread, namely, the
  revelation of the Whole Bible in the Book of Zechariah.

  Or perhaps we could descend one step closer to the foundation and look at
  the evidence I present (which you said was no evidence at all).

  Here are some potential points of discussion:

  1) The implications of infinite symmetry of the Circle integrated with the
  Hebrew Alphabet and the structure of the Everlasting Word.
  2) The implications of the sevenfold symmetric perfection of the Canon
  wheel, and its relation to the use of the Number Seven in all Scripture from
  Genesis to Revelation. What does this tell us about God and His Word? How
  does it relate to the One Stone with Seven Eyes?
  3) The implications of the derivation of the sevenfold symmetry of the Canon
  Wheel from first principles, using nothing but a Model, two symmetry
  constraints, and two initial conditions.
  4) The implications of the tri-radiant cruciform halo isomorphic to the
  traditional Sign of Deity in ancient Christian iconography.
  5) The implications of the Cross as the template for the geometric structure
  of Scripture, and its relation to the Seal of God, and the central message
  of all Scripture.
  6) The implications of the representation of the Holy Bible in the form of
  the Menorah, and the symbolic relation between Light and God's Word.
  7) The implications of the etymology of the words for a Bowl (Gulah),
  Revelation (Galah), Scroll (Megillah), Wheel (Galgal) and the Place of the
  Skull (Golgatha) - which is the axis of the Biblical revelation.
  8) The full integration of all these symbols and structures in the prophecy
  given in Zechariah, where every detail mentioned above is integrated with
  perfect grace.

  I could go on .... ;-)

  In the everlasting Joy of Christ,
  Richard
  Discover the sevenfold symmetric perfection of the Holy Bible at
  http://www.BibleWheel.com

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Don Winterstein"

  Richard: "I quoted Luke 4.3f: And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written
  [SCRIPTURE], That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every WORD OF
  GOD."

  Don: Every Word of God that one lives by is not necessarily Scripture, and
  this passage does not imply as much. It further does not imply that any
  Word of God is Scripture. For example, if Word of God were Scripture, then
  Ezekiel 35 would be such a Word. Does a man live by that word? Just
  because Scripture talks about the Word of God that man lives by does not
  mean that Scripture is identical to such Word.

  <snip>
Received on Wed Jan 14 05:27:24 2004

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