Re: coal, fire, etc.

Date: Tue Sep 16 2003 - 09:52:55 EDT

  • Next message: Denyse O'Leary: "Re: Van Till's Award"

    On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 20:19:27 -0400 "bivalve"
    <> writes:
    > In light of the discussion on YEC terminology, etc., it seems worth
    > stating that my overall point is that these are not good arguments
    > for a global flood.

    These are good arguments for a flood origin for coal, and coal deposits
    are on every continent. As I said before, individually the arguments may
    not be persuasive but when they are all strung together they are
    compelling. The choice becomes: Were all of these coal deposits the
    result of individual floods or was there one big flood? At this point
    you need to concentrate on whether the individual arguments support a
    transported (water-borne) model or a swamp model.
    > >" ‘Exotics,’ boulders or cobbles of composition other than the
    > surrounding bedrock, are a common occurrence in coal... It is very
    > likely that the boulders were attached to roots of floating trees,
    > therefore indicating they were transported in rafts of marine
    > plants. ..."<

    > Quartz pebbles are very common
    > in the Sipsey River where it goes through a cypress swamp, yet I
    > have not noticed any ongoing global floods while I have been
    > collecting mussels in the river.

    As a kid I used to swim in the Sipsey River. There is an old ford (river
    crossing) a few hundred yards north of the Coker-Aliceville road between
    Romulus and Jena. If it's still there, the two-story wooden store on the
    north side of the Coker road at Romulus was built by my grandfather. I
    remember the quartz pebbles at the ford - when underwater you could hear
    them clicking over each other in the swift, shallow-water current. There
    was also a high platform and cable swing in one of the cypress trees.
    Good memories of a different life.

    I have also squirrel hunted in the Sipsey swamp. The quartz pebbles you
    refer to are from the sand and gravel deposits that underlie the river
    and swamp. This does not explain how "boulders or cobbles of composition
    other than the surrounding bedrock" got into the coal. They had to be
    transported from a distant source into the coal-forming peat. Please
    explain how this could happen in a swamp. Here's another quote:

    "Wanless: 'I have been intrigued for a number of years with a paper
    written by Dr. Price of West Virginia on some pebbles, or small cobbles
    of quartzites, and perhaps greenstone, in the Sewell coal in eastern West
    Virginia at distances which his paper indicates would have been at least
    sixty miles from the source of such pieces.'

    Cross: 'These pebbles in the Sewell coal are scarcely pebbles, some of
    them are up to 25-50 lbs., one even more than 100. They are big things.
    They are common in certain areas and it is hard to explain how they would
    get there. They are waterworn... We have about half a ton of them."

    From: Parks, B.C., 1952. Mineral Matter in Coal. In: Second Conference on
    the Origin and Constitution of Coal, 288-289.

    So David, this is a different situation than the locally-derived quartz
    pebbles in the Sipsey river. These boulders were transported at least
    sixty miles and deposited in a _swamp_? How do you move a 100 pound
    boulder out into a swamp?

    > References on evidence of fire:
    > Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology v. 164, no. 1,
    > December 2000 has several articles on evidence of fires in the past.
    > Fossil charcoal is known from the Devonian on up through the
    > geologic column. Here are some of the articles:

    Thanks for the reference; I'll get the articles when I can.
    > I still have that duplicate of a paper on modern transported peat
    > deposits, if you are interested. Again, as we are not currently
    > undergoing a global flood, the paper raises problems for the claim
    > that evidence of allochthonous components to coal is evidence of a
    > global flood.

    I don't recall you offering a paper, but I am very interested. I'll send
    you my address off-line.


    The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
    Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
    Only $14.95/ month - visit to sign up today!

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Tue Sep 16 2003 - 10:20:00 EDT