Re: Tit for Tat?

From: Jay Willingham (
Date: Sun Sep 14 2003 - 12:08:56 EDT

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    Well put.

    How to reach out to both sides of the debate by putting Christ first and
    working together to spread the Gospel with debates that attempt to explore
    the mysteries without making them causes for division.

    In short, how do we disagree on such matters without causing schism?

    Jay Willingham

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Alexanian, Moorad" <>
    To: "AmericanScientificAffiliation" <>
    Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2003 8:57 AM
    Subject: FW: Tit for Tat?

    > Jan’s assessment is to the point. Most practicing scientists are not
    concerned nor are they qualified to discuss biblical issues that require us
    to do biblical research. The pragmatic approach is to decide Who Christ is
    and what He did on the cross for each one of us. Once that question is
    decided by saying yes to Jesus, then one can proceed to follow His teachings
    and have one’s daily choices dictated in pleasing God. As scientist quo
    scientist, most of us, if not all of us, are concerned with subject matters
    that have nothing whatsoever to do with questions of origins. If that is so,
    then why waste so much time on issues that we will never know for sure that
    add little to our understanding of science or to how to govern our daily
    behavior as we exercise our free will.
    > Moorad
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: on behalf of Jan de Koning
    > Sent: Sat 9/13/2003 4:24 PM
    > To:
    > Cc:
    > Subject: Re: Tit for Tat?
    > At 10:37 PM 11/09/2003 -0500, Keith Miller wrote:
    > >But what you describe is simply not science. I see no way that divine
    > >action can be a part of scientific description. Divine agency is almost
    > >by definition a black box - a divine agent can theoretically explain
    > >everything and thus nothing. Science is a method by which we attempt to
    > >discover processes and mechanisms at work in nature. It is a limited
    > >endeaver. To try to make "science" into some overarching all
    > >search for truth is to undermine the very methods by which we evaluate
    > >validity of scientific explanations. I have yet to see a description of
    > >what the ID scientific method is - other than simply to allow
    > >metaphysical speculation as part of scientific description (which is not
    > >methodology at all).
    > >
    > >Keith
    > When I went first to university some 50 years ago, one of the first
    > I was taking (and which I had to take) at the Free University was a
    > philosophy course which described in detail how all of life, all of our
    > studies, were part of God`s creation, and were combined in one view of the
    > totality of life. That statement made it necessary to have a look at the
    > Bible as well. But then the Bible, not in a ``modern`` translation, even
    > if the translation was almost 500 years old.
    > Our readings showed how translations in `Modern` times always included
    > modern thoughts. We spent hours on the Old Testament comparing texts with
    > words like `nephesh`, `leeb` , `ruach` and discovered that, for example
    > word including nephesh was translated in Gen. 1 as living being, because
    > was talking about animals, but in Gen.2 it was translated as living soul,
    > because man was meant. Clearly at least one was not a literal
    > translation, but forced by our philosophical background. Our prof.
    > impressed upon us that our reading, be it translations or anything else,
    > was always colouring our understanding.
    > Consequently, trying to discuss on this listing anything more than some
    > basic facts and pointing to interesting studies is impossible. Debating
    > basic philosophical understandings of our reading of the Bible would
    > involve us in discussing bible translations, history of bible
    > history of philosophy, philosophy of religion, basic knowledge of
    > scientific research etc. etc. All things requiring years of study,
    > intersting, but impossible on a list like ours.
    > Jan de Koning

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