Re: Tit for Tat (Richard's challenge)?

Date: Thu Sep 11 2003 - 14:57:25 EDT

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    I have looked at your web site once for a few minutes. The symmetry is very
    fascinating, even beautiful. However, the members of this list, myself
    included, don't have the interest (at least certainly not the time) to
    explore every other members' theories on one thing or another. You seem
    dismayed that we have not all taken hours of time to study your data and
    consider your ideas (i.e., interpretation of the data). There are many
    intellectually and spiritually stimulating ideas that we all wish to
    contemplate. For our own individual reasons (including what God leads us
    to), we each choose only a few issues and topics to devote our time and
    attention to.

    Besides the limited-time issues, we also differ in our epistemological and
    apologetic approach to interpreting and applying knowledge and data. You
    must learn to accept that we do not all derive the same "evidentialist"
    interpretation of your biblewheel data. Let me explain how probably many on
    this list respond to the unveiling of your discovery by describing my own
    reaction to it:

    As I mentioned, I think the symmetry you describe is very interesting. But
    not having the time to study it, I would have to just take your word for it
    that it is a statistically significant pattern (e.g., relative to other
    patterns one could create with the same bible books and alphabet data). No
    disrespect intended, but I can't really just take your word for it because
    I don't know you well enough. There are few people in this world that I
    would simply take at their word about claims of such proposed far-reaching
    importance. Even if the symmetry is amazing, I do not agree on a basic
    apologetic level that it will mean anything to anyone who isn't a believer

    Your web link is available to anyone who is interested in visiting, so you
    shouldn't need to always issue a hostile challenge to people to critique
    your ideas. Periodically, or when you add additional data, simply invite
    people from the list to visit and offer their criticisms.

    I think people on the list are willing to discuss the more general issues
    relating to your approach interpreting such evidence (I am guessing that
    you view your findings as evidence for some sort of intelligent design,
    i.e, proof of God). Perhaps you could pose the question, "If my finding
    that this symmetry is in fact highly improbable and could not have arisen
    by chance or human design, how ought this information be understood
    theologically?" This and other such questions are of more general interest
    for discussion on this list.


              > To: <>
                        Sent by: cc:
                        asa-owner@lists. Subject: Re: Tit for Tat?
                        09/11/03 12:11

    >For those who would just dismiss ID assertions
    >as ridiculous, they would find themselves in the
    >same camp as those who have poo-pooed
    >radical new scientific theories in the past.
    Or worse, a radical new vision of the supernatural unity of the Holy Bible.

    The reaction to my work here on ASA has basically followed this pattern:

    1) Outright Dismissal
    2) Contemptuous Mockery
    3) Utter Silence and Refusal to Engage.

    So lets try this one more time. I have two questions:

    1) Can anyone on this list find a fundamental flaw or systematic error in
    my research?

    2) Can anyone on this list design a book superior to the sevenfold circular
    symmetry seen in the Holy Bible?

    Discover the sevenfold symmetric perfection of the Holy Bible at

     ----- Original Message -----
     From: Steve Petermann
     To: Ted Davis ; ;
     Sent: Thursday, September 11, 2003 8:20 AM
     Subject: Re: Tit for Tat?

     Ted wrote:
    > Is is spiritually dangerous to teach YEC or TE, or some other position
    > origins?

     I think the same question could be asked about scientific materialism or
     methodological naturalism. If those approaches are taught as dogma, there
     is, in my opinion, a spiritual risk of fatalism, extreme relativism, or
     nihilism. On the other hand religious positions that stand in stark
     contrast to our scientific take on reality, can create a spiritual crisis
     for individuals who later in life find those positions unreasonable. That
     can lead to a disillusionment and rejection of religion, per se.

     Seems to me what should be emphasized about origins in public education is
     that *no* theory of origins is without its problems, discuss the problems
     then let the kids and their parents decide for themselves. If anything the
     ID discussions have raised important questions about the completeness of
     Darwinian theory. For those who would just dismiss ID assertions as
     ridiculous, they would find themselves in the same camp as those who have
     poo-pooed radical new scientific theories in the past.

     Steve Petermann

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