Date: Thu Sep 11 2003 - 15:01:36 EDT
> These are from my Atheist buddies site. Feel free to comment....
> ~ PREPARE TO THINK ~
> Proverbs 14:15 "The Simple Believeth Every Word... but the Prudent Man
> Looketh Well To His Going."
> ARGUMENT FROM NON-BELIEF
> 1.) If the Christian God exists, he wants ALL humans to know he exists.
> 2.) If the Christian God exists, he knows what evidences are sufficient
> for ALL to know that he exists.
> 3.) Not ALL people believe in God.
> 4.) God's evidences, thus far, are insufficient for ALL to believe.
> 5.) God either wants atheists to exist or there is no God. (from 2,3 and
> (If God wants atheists to exist... why all the threats of Hell and
> damnation in Christian theology?)
Premise 4 is flawed because it contradicts the revealed intent of the
Christian God which is "right relation through faith." It is not God's
intent to simply force a person to admit a premise through evidence. This is
made explicit in John 20.29:
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
It is important to note that the typical argument asserting that this
promotes "blind faith" is false. Faith is a gift of God, as with Simon
Peter, to whom Christ said "Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and
blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."
This also presents the false view of Christian Faith which is much much more
than a mere assent to facts based on evidence. The Christian Faith is better
understood as the relation between a married couple - that's why the Bible
consistently refers to lack of faith in God as adultery and harlotry.
> OMNISCIENCE-HUMAN EXPERIENCE INCOMPATIBILITY ARGUMENT
> 1.) Fear is a feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or
> imminence of danger. (The American HeritageŽ Dictionary: 2000)
> 2.) If God exists, God cannot feel agitated, anxious or feel endangered.
> 3.) If God cannot know fear, he is not all-knowing.
> (Some would claim that it is against God's nature to be afraid. Exactly,
> then he cannot be omniscient. There are at least some things for which he
> is completely ignorant of. Stating that it's against his nature is a
> cop-out and a concession simultaneously.)
Premise 2 contradicts the primary revelation of the Christian God "who
became flesh, and dwelt amongst us." This is how the Bible states it (Heb
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the
heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have
not an high priest which cannot be *touched with the feeling* of our
infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Scripture *explicity* answers this question in a way no other religion can.
> ON GOD'S JUSTICE AND MERCY
> 1.) If God is "all just" then he always dispenses justice with the exact
> amount of severity deserved by the crime.
> 2.) If God is "all merciful" then he always dispenses justice with less
> severity than is deserved by the crime.
> 3.) You cannot dispense justice with less severity and exact severity at
> the same time. - Dan Barker
God squared this circle on the Cross.
> ON GOD BEING ATEMPORAL
> 1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
> 2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come
> into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
> 3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal
> 4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
> (This is explained and discussed more HERE.)
This simply reveals the inadequacy of philosophy to deal with certain
aspects of ontology. But given philosophy's "less than stellar" performance
in this area (e.g. Sartre's Being and Nothingness and Heidegeger's Being and
Time, both of which are generally incomprehensible to the normal person), I
don't think I'll lose any sleep over this one.
> ON GOD`S JEALOUSY
> 1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8.
> 2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4
> 3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5.
> 4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist.
> (Basically love is NOT jealous, yet god is jealous, then God can`t be
> love. But if god IS love he cannot be jealous. Be he is. Yahweh cannot
> possibly exist if he has both the attributes of love and jealousy.)
Words acquire correct meaning only in a context. Examination and comparison
of the different contexts that use the word "jealous" above will clear up
this confusion for anyone who actually wants it cleared up. This appears to
be more of a joke than an argument.
> ON FREEWILL
> 1.) God has an unchangeable blueprint/plan of the Universe.
> 2.) Whatever begins to exist in the Universe is part of God`s unchanging
> 3.) Human thoughts and actions begin to exist in the Universe.
> 4.) All human thoughts and actions are planned by God.
> 5.) Man has no Free-will.
Some Christians believe this, but not all because Premise 1 is not at all
> ON PRAYER
> 1.) Humans can't change God's mind for he has a divine plan and is
> 2.) Prayer doesn't change things.
> (Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s
Perhaps part of God's unchangeable Plan is the change that occurs when you
pray. This falls in closely with other philosophical problems that are not
confined to Christianity per se. Perhaps you should throw out your utter
reliance on Reason, since it has led to so many problems, e.g. you can't
logically prove your wife loves you, etc.. On the other hand, perhaps you
should consider the possibility that Reality will always have aspects that
will appear contradictory, much like what we find at the foundation of
Quantum Physics. Perhaps the difficulties in comprehending true Christian
Doctrine should be a sign to you that it is REAL - surely no human would (or
could?) invent such a vital yet difficult system of belief!
> ON LOVE & HELL
> 1.) God's love is superlative.
> 2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self.
> 3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture.
> 4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is
> illogical. - Hank
I don't have an argument against this one. But then, the doctrine of eternal
torture in hell is not the only possible understanding of Scripture. Three
other possibilities are 1) Annihilation, 2) Universal Restoration 3) A
pugative hell, which gives it a very rational reason for existing. All evil
is burned up. But all three of these are not without their own problems.
> ON GOD`S LIMITATIONS
> 1.) God knows infallibly what will occur in the Universe before it
> 2.) God can't change the future because he knows everything absolutely.
> 3.) God has no Free-will.
> (Who's driving?)
The apparent contradiction between Foreknowledge and Free Will is not as
obvious as you might think. Again, you are dealing with things beyond our
human ken. Its really difficult to believe that this would pose a problem
for a person truly seeking God.
Well, that's enough for now. Thanks for all the questions! They were fun ...
it always makes me feel good to examine my faith.
In service of the Faithful God,
Discover the sevenfold symmetric perfection of the Holy Bible at
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