Re: Logical Arguments Against God

From: David Opderbeck (
Date: Thu Sep 11 2003 - 14:43:52 EDT

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    OK, here goes.... (I'll take a crack at some of them..)

    1.) If the Christian God exists, he wants ALL humans to know he exists.
    2.) If the Christian God exists, he knows what evidences are sufficient
    for ALL to know that he exists.
    3.) Not ALL people believe in God.
    4.) God's evidences, thus far, are insufficient for ALL to believe.
    5.) God either wants atheists to exist or there is no God. (from 2,3 and
    (If God wants atheists to exist... why all the threats of Hell and
    damnation in Christian theology?)

    Proposition (1) is not necessarily correct, depending on your understanding
    of predestination.
    Proposition (4) is incorrect; it assumes those people fail to believe
    because the evidence is insufficient. Their failure to believe, however,
    may be willful unbelief in the face of the evidence. Further, the term
    "believe" is vague. If "belief" is understood as feeling Augustine's
    "god-shaped vacuum," proposition (4) is probably false.

    1.) Fear is a feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or
    imminence of danger. (The American HeritageŽ Dictionary: 2000)
    2.) If God exists, God cannot feel agitated, anxious or feel endangered.
    3.) If God cannot know fear, he is not all-knowing.
    (Some would claim that it is against God's nature to be afraid. Exactly,
    then he cannot be omniscient. There are at least some things for which he
    is completely ignorant of. Stating that it's against his nature is a
    cop-out and a concession simultaneously.)

    Proposition (3) is incorrect because it equates the experience of an
    emotion with "knowledge." It is perfectly consistent to say that God does
    not experience certain emotions because of his omniscience and omnipotence
    (the fact that God knows everything and is all-powerful means he has
    nothing to fear).

    1.) If God is "all just" then he always dispenses justice with the exact
    amount of severity deserved by the crime.
    2.) If God is "all merciful" then he always dispenses justice with less
    severity than is deserved by the crime.
    3.) You cannot dispense justice with less severity and exact severity at
    the same time. - Dan Barker

    Proposition (2) is incorrect because it ignores the central event in
    Christianity, the cross. The cross fully satisfies God's perfect justice
    and therefore his mercy towards those who receive the cross does not
    conflict with his justice. Further, both propositions (1) and (2) use a
    formulation, "all", that isn't used in many historic statements of
    Christian theology (e.g., the Westminster Confession). The fact that God
    is "most" merciful, as the Westminster Confession states, for example,
    doesn't preclude him being perfectly just, particularly where his mercy is
    made effective through the cross.

    1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
    2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come
    into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
    3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal
    4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
    (This is explained and discussed more HERE.)

    This seems to me to lead to Anselm's ontological argument. We can conceive
    of no natural, temporal process which could have created time. We can
    conceive of a being great enough to exist outside of time and to create
    time itself; that being is God.

    1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8.
    2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4
    3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5.
    4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist.
    (Basically love is NOT jealous, yet god is jealous, then God can`t be
    love. But if god IS love he cannot be jealous. Be he is. Yahweh cannot
    possibly exist if he has both the attributes of love and jealousy.)

    This is just bad exegesis and sloppy use of an english translation. The
    "jeolousy" referred to in Corinthians is not the same thing as God's
    "jeolousy" that his people will worship only him.

    1.) God has an unchangeable blueprint/plan of the Universe.
    2.) Whatever begins to exist in the Universe is part of God`s unchanging
    3.) Human thoughts and actions begin to exist in the Universe.
    4.) All human thoughts and actions are planned by God.
    5.) Man has no Free-will.

    How does this disprove the existence of God?

    1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.
    2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as
    3.) All Faiths are true.
    (Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical
    conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Through
    faith one can know God.)

    Propsition (2) is false, particularly with respect to Christianity.
    Christianity is grounded in history, and therefore some knowledge of those
    facts is required in order for "faith" to be genuinely "Christian."
    Further, proposition (3) doesn't follow from proposition (2), at least if
    "true" refers to objectively true.

    1.) The Christian God is a personal being and is omniscient.
    2.) Personal beings have free will.(according to most Christians)
    3.) To have freewill, a personal being must be able to make a choice.
    4.) A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty". It
    knows its choices in advance.
    5.) God has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore has no free
    6.) Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a
    personal being who knows everything cannot exist.
    7.) Therefore, the Christian God does not exist. - a syllogistic view of
    Dan Barker's F.A.N.G

    Proposition (5) doesn't follow from proposition (4). The fact that God
    knows his choices in advance doesn't mean he doesn't in fact make choices.

    1.) Humans can't change God's mind for he has a divine plan and is
    2.) Prayer doesn't change things.
    (Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s

    Again, this isn't an argument against God's existence. Moreover,
    proposition (1) fails to account for the fact that God's plan may have been
    affected by his foreknowledge of people's prayers.

    1.) God's love is superlative.
    2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self.
    3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture.
    4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is
    illogical. - Hank

    This is based on a loaded word, "torture." Hell is not "torture" in the
    sense of the infliction of unjustified suffering. Whatever the nature of
    the suffering in Hell may be, it is perfectly consistent with the
    requirements of justice. Further, proposition (1) is flawed if it implies
    that God's love outweighs his justice.

    1.) God knows infallibly what will occur in the Universe before it
    2.) God can't change the future because he knows everything absolutely.
    3.) God has no Free-will.
    (Who's driving?)

    Again, this improperly conflates foreknowledge with predetermination.

    1.) God is all-knowing.
    2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn't believe in him.
    3.) I was born to go to Hell.
    (Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I
    really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist
    aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that
    before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.)

    Perhaps you are. That doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Hopefully you'll
    change your mind.

    1.) God knows everything "before" it happens.
    2.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden knowing that man would
    eat from it.
    3.) God wanted sin to enter the world.
    (If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at
    all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the
    Garden in the first place?)

    Ok, we do now have to confront the very difficult doctrines of free will
    and predestination. Both are true. That is, indeed, a paradox that is
    part of Christian theology.

    1.) God's flesh was known as Jesus.
    2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven.
    3.) Jesus was Flesh.
    4.) Jesus no longer exists.
    (Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore
    Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is
    Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is
    no problem. However, if Jesus "is" God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is
    called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is
    spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of
    Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging
    spirit of God. No Jesus at that point. The Flesh, called Jesus, is dead.)

    Proposition (2) is not necessarily an accurate statement of Christian
    doctrine. In fact, Christian teaching is that believers will receive
    glorified bodies after the return of Christ and the resurrection.

    1.) God is good all of the time.
    2.) Everything that God creates is good. Amen?
    3.) God created evil according to Isaiah 45:7. (look it up)
    4.) Evil is good.

    1.) If God exists, it is probably the case that all sentient beings whose
    behavior God considers morally significant have extremely good knowledge
    of correct moral judgments.
    2.) If God exists, he considers humans' behavior morally significant.
    3.) Humans are sentient beings.
    4.) If God exists, it is probably the case that humans have extremely
    good knowledge of correct moral judgments.
    5.) Humans do not have extremely good knowledge of correct moral
    6.) Probably, God does not exist.- Cole Mitchell: Adapted from Niclas
    Berggren's "On the Nature of Morality".

    1.) All gods are the same god.
    2.) The various gods practiced by differing faiths all have different or
    even contradictory views of what they want for mankind.
    3.) All gods are not the same God.

    1.) If God exists, rational theists are probably noticeably morally
    superior to rational atheists, on average.
    2.) Rational theists are not noticeably morally superior to rational
    atheists, on average.
    3.) Probably, God does not exist. - Paul Draper

    1.) Spirits are not physical entities.
    2.) Brains are physical entities.
    3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that,
    4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory
    and can alter or erase memories completely.
    5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.

    [Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if
    true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How
    could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]

    ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
    1.) If God exists, then he is immutable.
    2.) If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
    3.) An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a
    later time not have that intention.
    4.) For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have
    had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation,
    no longer have the intention to create it.
    5.) Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created
    anything (from 3 and 4).
    6.) Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) -
    Theodore M. Drange

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