From: David Opderbeck (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Thu Sep 11 2003 - 14:43:52 EDT
OK, here goes.... (I'll take a crack at some of them..)
ARGUMENT FROM NON-BELIEF
1.) If the Christian God exists, he wants ALL humans to know he exists.
2.) If the Christian God exists, he knows what evidences are sufficient
for ALL to know that he exists.
3.) Not ALL people believe in God.
4.) God's evidences, thus far, are insufficient for ALL to believe.
5.) God either wants atheists to exist or there is no God. (from 2,3 and
(If God wants atheists to exist... why all the threats of Hell and
damnation in Christian theology?)
Proposition (1) is not necessarily correct, depending on your understanding
Proposition (4) is incorrect; it assumes those people fail to believe
because the evidence is insufficient. Their failure to believe, however,
may be willful unbelief in the face of the evidence. Further, the term
"believe" is vague. If "belief" is understood as feeling Augustine's
"god-shaped vacuum," proposition (4) is probably false.
OMNISCIENCE-HUMAN EXPERIENCE INCOMPATIBILITY ARGUMENT
1.) Fear is a feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or
imminence of danger. (The American HeritageŽ Dictionary: 2000)
2.) If God exists, God cannot feel agitated, anxious or feel endangered.
3.) If God cannot know fear, he is not all-knowing.
(Some would claim that it is against God's nature to be afraid. Exactly,
then he cannot be omniscient. There are at least some things for which he
is completely ignorant of. Stating that it's against his nature is a
cop-out and a concession simultaneously.)
Proposition (3) is incorrect because it equates the experience of an
emotion with "knowledge." It is perfectly consistent to say that God does
not experience certain emotions because of his omniscience and omnipotence
(the fact that God knows everything and is all-powerful means he has
nothing to fear).
ON GOD'S JUSTICE AND MERCY
1.) If God is "all just" then he always dispenses justice with the exact
amount of severity deserved by the crime.
2.) If God is "all merciful" then he always dispenses justice with less
severity than is deserved by the crime.
3.) You cannot dispense justice with less severity and exact severity at
the same time. - Dan Barker
Proposition (2) is incorrect because it ignores the central event in
Christianity, the cross. The cross fully satisfies God's perfect justice
and therefore his mercy towards those who receive the cross does not
conflict with his justice. Further, both propositions (1) and (2) use a
formulation, "all", that isn't used in many historic statements of
Christian theology (e.g., the Westminster Confession). The fact that God
is "most" merciful, as the Westminster Confession states, for example,
doesn't preclude him being perfectly just, particularly where his mercy is
made effective through the cross.
ON GOD BEING ATEMPORAL
1.) God, an atemporal being, created the Universe.
2.) Creation is a temporal processes because X cannot cause Y to come
into being unless X existed temporally prior to Y.
3.) If God existed prior to the creation of the Universe he is a temporal
4.) Since God is atemporal, God cannot be the creator the Universe.
(This is explained and discussed more HERE.)
This seems to me to lead to Anselm's ontological argument. We can conceive
of no natural, temporal process which could have created time. We can
conceive of a being great enough to exist outside of time and to create
time itself; that being is God.
ON GOD`S JEALOUSY
1.) "God is love." 1 John 4:8.
2.) "Love is not jealous." 1 Cor 13:4
3.) "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God." Exodus 20:5.
4.) The Christian god cannot logically exist.
(Basically love is NOT jealous, yet god is jealous, then God can`t be
love. But if god IS love he cannot be jealous. Be he is. Yahweh cannot
possibly exist if he has both the attributes of love and jealousy.)
This is just bad exegesis and sloppy use of an english translation. The
"jeolousy" referred to in Corinthians is not the same thing as God's
"jeolousy" that his people will worship only him.
1.) God has an unchangeable blueprint/plan of the Universe.
2.) Whatever begins to exist in the Universe is part of God`s unchanging
3.) Human thoughts and actions begin to exist in the Universe.
4.) All human thoughts and actions are planned by God.
5.) Man has no Free-will.
How does this disprove the existence of God?
1.) A prerequisite to believe in a Faith is faith.
2.) Having faith is all that is required to accept a Faith (belief) as
3.) All Faiths are true.
(Of course all Faiths aren`t true, but this is the only logical
conclusion that can be drawn from a person that states that, "Through
faith one can know God.)
Propsition (2) is false, particularly with respect to Christianity.
Christianity is grounded in history, and therefore some knowledge of those
facts is required in order for "faith" to be genuinely "Christian."
Further, proposition (3) doesn't follow from proposition (2), at least if
"true" refers to objectively true.
FREEWILL ARGUMENT FOR THE NONEXISTENCE OF GOD
1.) The Christian God is a personal being and is omniscient.
2.) Personal beings have free will.(according to most Christians)
3.) To have freewill, a personal being must be able to make a choice.
4.) A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty". It
knows its choices in advance.
5.) God has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore has no free
6.) Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a
personal being who knows everything cannot exist.
7.) Therefore, the Christian God does not exist. - a syllogistic view of
Dan Barker's F.A.N.G
Proposition (5) doesn't follow from proposition (4). The fact that God
knows his choices in advance doesn't mean he doesn't in fact make choices.
1.) Humans can't change God's mind for he has a divine plan and is
2.) Prayer doesn't change things.
(Prayer may make you feel better emotionally, but it doesn`t change God`s
Again, this isn't an argument against God's existence. Moreover,
proposition (1) fails to account for the fact that God's plan may have been
affected by his foreknowledge of people's prayers.
ON LOVE & HELL
1.) God's love is superlative.
2.) God's love of man exceeds man's love of self.
3.) Man's love of self prohibits torture.
4.) Considering God's greater love for us, Hell (eternal torture) is
illogical. - Hank
This is based on a loaded word, "torture." Hell is not "torture" in the
sense of the infliction of unjustified suffering. Whatever the nature of
the suffering in Hell may be, it is perfectly consistent with the
requirements of justice. Further, proposition (1) is flawed if it implies
that God's love outweighs his justice.
ON GOD`S LIMITATIONS
1.) God knows infallibly what will occur in the Universe before it
2.) God can't change the future because he knows everything absolutely.
3.) God has no Free-will.
Again, this improperly conflates foreknowledge with predetermination.
1.) God is all-knowing.
2.) Before I was born God knew I wouldn't believe in him.
3.) I was born to go to Hell.
(Sure you may say I have a choice, but I think I`ve proven already that I
really don`t. I`m simply fulfilling the will of God by being an atheist
aren`t I? If I`m not, I shouldn`t exist: For God would have known that
before I was created that I wouldn`t believe in him.)
Perhaps you are. That doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Hopefully you'll
change your mind.
ON THE GARDEN OF EDEN
1.) God knows everything "before" it happens.
2.) God placed the tree of knowledge in the Garden knowing that man would
eat from it.
3.) God wanted sin to enter the world.
(If God didn`t want sin to enter the world, why create Adam and Eve at
all? He knew what would happen. Why place the forbidden trees in the
Garden in the first place?)
Ok, we do now have to confront the very difficult doctrines of free will
and predestination. Both are true. That is, indeed, a paradox that is
part of Christian theology.
ON THE BODY OF CHRIST
1.) God's flesh was known as Jesus.
2.) Flesh cannot enter into Heaven.
3.) Jesus was Flesh.
4.) Jesus no longer exists.
(Many at this point will state that the spirit lives on so therefore
Jesus lives. This really depends on what you believe about Jesus. Is
Jesus the son of God or God in flesh? If Jesus is merely the son there is
no problem. However, if Jesus "is" God himself, we do. You see, Jesus is
called Jesus because of the attribute of Flesh. If Jesus = God (who is
spirit) then the entity known as Jesus ceases to exist. The flesh/body of
Jesus, no longer exists and the spirit of God is still the unchanging
spirit of God. No Jesus at that point. The Flesh, called Jesus, is dead.)
Proposition (2) is not necessarily an accurate statement of Christian
doctrine. In fact, Christian teaching is that believers will receive
glorified bodies after the return of Christ and the resurrection.
EVIL IS GOOD?
1.) God is good all of the time.
2.) Everything that God creates is good. Amen?
3.) God created evil according to Isaiah 45:7. (look it up)
4.) Evil is good.
ARGUMENT FROM MORAL IGNORANCE
1.) If God exists, it is probably the case that all sentient beings whose
behavior God considers morally significant have extremely good knowledge
of correct moral judgments.
2.) If God exists, he considers humans' behavior morally significant.
3.) Humans are sentient beings.
4.) If God exists, it is probably the case that humans have extremely
good knowledge of correct moral judgments.
5.) Humans do not have extremely good knowledge of correct moral
6.) Probably, God does not exist.- Cole Mitchell: Adapted from Niclas
Berggren's "On the Nature of Morality".
ON UNIVERSAL THEISM
1.) All gods are the same god.
2.) The various gods practiced by differing faiths all have different or
even contradictory views of what they want for mankind.
3.) All gods are not the same God.
ARGUMENT FROM MORAL PARITY
1.) If God exists, rational theists are probably noticeably morally
superior to rational atheists, on average.
2.) Rational theists are not noticeably morally superior to rational
atheists, on average.
3.) Probably, God does not exist. - Paul Draper
1.) Spirits are not physical entities.
2.) Brains are physical entities.
3.) Past experiences are stored in our physical brains, we call that,
4.) Injury can damage portions of the physical brain that store memory
and can alter or erase memories completely.
5.) If human spirits exist... after death, spirits can have no memory.
[Note: Some will say the spirit stores physical memories as well, but if
true, the spirit would have to be physical at least to a degree. How
could a non-physical spirit store, physical memories?]
ON GOD'S IMMUTABILITY - Unchangingness
1.) If God exists, then he is immutable.
2.) If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe.
3.) An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a
later time not have that intention.
4.) For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have
had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation,
no longer have the intention to create it.
5.) Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created
anything (from 3 and 4).
6.) Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5) -
Theodore M. Drange
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