From: John W Burgeson (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Tue Sep 09 2003 - 12:39:44 EDT
Scott Jorgenson looks in on us from time to time. He said I could post
this to the list. I am also copying Joe Sebeny.
My name is Scott Jorgenson. From time to time I've browsed the archived
email discussion, and today I saw your question:
"Joe has made two claims, which may be true:
(1) Neither ICR, nor AIG, nor Morris nor Ken Ham, has ever asserted that
non-YECers are not Christians.
(2) Both ICR and AIG have explicitly said, in print, that they reject
I am looking for literature citations which might refute (1) or support
So you know where I'm coming from: I am a 35-year-old American software
engineer and a long-time Christian with a passion for the sciences. I am
an ASA member nor am I a discussion list member, though if you'd like to
this to the list, you are welcome to. Like most in ASA, it seems, I've
the conclusion that ICR and AIG are profoundly misguided in their claims
intentions, contribute to unnecessary division among believers, and
unnecessary obstacles to scientifically-educated seekers.
But I don't recall ever reading any plain, unhedged claim from ICR or AIG
the lines of (1) above, while I do recall very occasional publications
both along the lines of (2). For example, at the AIG Web site, see
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/1152.asp by Duane Gish:
"What is Required to be a Christian?
But can one really be a born-again Christian and an evolutionist at the
time? To answer that question we must first search out what the Bible
is necessary to become a Christian...
This appears to be the basic condition for being a Christian, to repent
believe in the person and redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ, the
Son of God, who shed His blood on the cross for our salvation and the
forgiveness of our sins.
Christians may differ on the interpretation of certain doctrines, such
Does the Hebrew word yom in Genesis 1 denote a solar day, or may it refer
long period of time? By what method did God create the heavens and the
These are important matters, and they have occupied theologians for
But should one's salvation depend upon getting all the answers right?
be done to 'believe on Christ'?
No, not at all! ...
No, belief in the historicity of Genesis is not essential to our
However, we must add that the biblical record and teaching concerning
is a vitally important issue."
So I do not see evidence that it is ICR's or AIG's position that
simply cannot be theistic evolutionists, progressive creationists, etc.
what I see is evidence of a somewhat more nuanced position on their part
(hinted at in the last sentence of the above quote): they seem to
that sincere and convinced Christians can take a non-YEC view - BUT that
view is unsupportable and dangerous. First, ICR and AIG seem to believe
non-YEC Christians are, intellectually, inconsistent, illogical and
(This first charge doesn't bother me much, if only because we Christians
made our peace with science tend to think the same of YEC'ers.) Second,
my opinion far worse, ICR and AIG further seem to believe that non-YEC
Christians are being unfaithful to God in that aspect of their lives,
compromising with the world rather than transcending it. As a result,
harboring something putrid that is a danger to their own faith and the
others they might infect. This is essentially a charge of unrepentant
disobedience to the Lord (ie sin) and that is why I find it so serious
So the ICR and AIG position seems to be that while Christians can be
they ought not do so - because non-YEC not only is intellectually
but further allows sin to fester and potentially threaten (although not
itself revoke) one's salvation. For evidence that at least something
is the ICR and AIG view, integrate across all of the following articles,
of which explicitly say you can't be Christian and non-YEC, but all of
stress the gravity of the "error" of being so:
So I think you should re-direct the thrust of your questioning of the
presenter in your neighborhood church - from whether he thinks a
be non-YEC, to whether he thinks a GOOD Christian can be non-YEC. If you
expose his likely contempt for the notion, you will have made your point,
(As evidence of widespread contempt in ICR and AIG for the non-YEC
see not only the above, but go to http://www.answersingenesis.org and
http://www.icr.org and search on such turns-of-phrase as "professing
Christian", "so-called Christian", "half-born Christians" and (a favorite
AIG) "Churchian". Search for documents containing "Christian" and words
"compromise", "apostate", etc. You will soon have plenty of fodder with
to rightly charge ICR and AIG with division and uncharitable conduct.)
Hope this helps,
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