Post from a non-member

From: John W Burgeson (
Date: Tue Sep 09 2003 - 12:39:44 EDT

  • Next message: John W Burgeson: "Re: ICR/AIG claims"

    Scott Jorgenson looks in on us from time to time. He said I could post
    this to the list. I am also copying Joe Sebeny.

    Hi John,

    My name is Scott Jorgenson. From time to time I've browsed the archived
    email discussion, and today I saw your question:
    "Joe has made two claims, which may be true:

    (1) Neither ICR, nor AIG, nor Morris nor Ken Ham, has ever asserted that
    non-YECers are not Christians.

    (2) Both ICR and AIG have explicitly said, in print, that they reject
    such a

    I am looking for literature citations which might refute (1) or support
    So you know where I'm coming from: I am a 35-year-old American software
    engineer and a long-time Christian with a passion for the sciences. I am
    an ASA member nor am I a discussion list member, though if you'd like to
    this to the list, you are welcome to. Like most in ASA, it seems, I've
    come to
    the conclusion that ICR and AIG are profoundly misguided in their claims
    intentions, contribute to unnecessary division among believers, and
    unnecessary obstacles to scientifically-educated seekers.

    But I don't recall ever reading any plain, unhedged claim from ICR or AIG
    the lines of (1) above, while I do recall very occasional publications
    both along the lines of (2). For example, at the AIG Web site, see by Duane Gish:
    "What is Required to be a Christian?

    But can one really be a born-again Christian and an evolutionist at the
    time? To answer that question we must first search out what the Bible
    tells us
    is necessary to become a Christian...

    This appears to be the basic condition for being a Christian, to repent
    and to
    believe in the person and redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ, the
    Son of God, who shed His blood on the cross for our salvation and the
    forgiveness of our sins.

    Christians may differ on the interpretation of certain doctrines, such
    as: ...
    Does the Hebrew word yom in Genesis 1 denote a solar day, or may it refer
    to a
    long period of time? By what method did God create the heavens and the
    These are important matters, and they have occupied theologians for
    But should one's salvation depend upon getting all the answers right?
    Must that
    be done to 'believe on Christ'?

    No, not at all! ...

    No, belief in the historicity of Genesis is not essential to our
    However, we must add that the biblical record and teaching concerning
    is a vitally important issue."
    So I do not see evidence that it is ICR's or AIG's position that
    simply cannot be theistic evolutionists, progressive creationists, etc.
    what I see is evidence of a somewhat more nuanced position on their part
    (hinted at in the last sentence of the above quote): they seem to
    that sincere and convinced Christians can take a non-YEC view - BUT that
    such a
    view is unsupportable and dangerous. First, ICR and AIG seem to believe
    non-YEC Christians are, intellectually, inconsistent, illogical and
    (This first charge doesn't bother me much, if only because we Christians
    made our peace with science tend to think the same of YEC'ers.) Second,
    and in
    my opinion far worse, ICR and AIG further seem to believe that non-YEC
    Christians are being unfaithful to God in that aspect of their lives,
    compromising with the world rather than transcending it. As a result,
    they are
    harboring something putrid that is a danger to their own faith and the
    faith of
    others they might infect. This is essentially a charge of unrepentant
    disobedience to the Lord (ie sin) and that is why I find it so serious

    So the ICR and AIG position seems to be that while Christians can be
    they ought not do so - because non-YEC not only is intellectually
    but further allows sin to fester and potentially threaten (although not
    itself revoke) one's salvation. For evidence that at least something
    like this
    is the ICR and AIG view, integrate across all of the following articles,
    of which explicitly say you can't be Christian and non-YEC, but all of
    stress the gravity of the "error" of being so:
    etc, etc

    So I think you should re-direct the thrust of your questioning of the
    presenter in your neighborhood church - from whether he thinks a
    Christian can
    be non-YEC, to whether he thinks a GOOD Christian can be non-YEC. If you
    expose his likely contempt for the notion, you will have made your point,

    (As evidence of widespread contempt in ICR and AIG for the non-YEC
    see not only the above, but go to and and search on such turns-of-phrase as "professing
    Christian", "so-called Christian", "half-born Christians" and (a favorite
    AIG) "Churchian". Search for documents containing "Christian" and words
    "compromise", "apostate", etc. You will soon have plenty of fodder with
    to rightly charge ICR and AIG with division and uncharitable conduct.)

    Hope this helps,


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