Re: ICR/AIG claims

From: Keith Miller (
Date: Mon Sep 08 2003 - 21:29:23 EDT

  • Next message: Stephen J. Krogh, P.G.: "RE: ICR/AIG claims"

    >> I need help. Ten days from now there will be a YEC presentation at
    >> a church 1 block from my home. The presenter, Joe Sebeny, has
    >> challenged me to attend, "and learn something."
    >> Joe has made two claims, which may be true:
    >> (1) Neither ICR, nor AIG, nor Morris nor Ken Ham, has ever
    >> asserted that non-YECers are not Christians.

    While the essay below was not written by either Morris or Ham, it
    certainly is held by many YEC proponents. The following is by Tom
    Willis (president of Creation Science Association of Mid-America) who
    was the main force behind eliminating most evolutionary concepts, an
    ancient Earth, the big Bang, and environmental ethics from the Kansas
    Science curriculum. Those changes were subsequently reversed a year

    I don't see how you can say "Evolutionists cannot be Christians" any
    clearer without actually using those precise words.



    "I'm a Christian Too"

    The Greatest "Proof" of Evolution

    by Tom Willis

    A few years ago while in the opening minutes of my address to the
    Mensa* Convention, I was interrupted by a fellow who came to the front
    of the room, stood before the audience of several hundred and announced
    (paraphrase) "I'm a Christian too, but I believe in evolution, so you
    can be a Christian and believe in evolution. You don't have to believe
    what he is saying to be a Christian." Satisfied he had accomplished his
    important mission, he then sat down.

    I have the typical "absent-minded professor" memory, but I typically
    remember what I say in this type of encounter. However, in this case, I
    always draw a blank. I probably said something like, "You can sit in a
    garage and call yourself a car, but that doesn't make either what you
    call yourself or what you believe about cars true."

    At the first public hearing on the Kansas Science Standards, a key
    member of the State Committee who had drafted the proposed science
    standards, privately, but in the hearing of others, informed a School
    Board member that he was offended by the testimony against evolution,
    because "I'm a Christian too."

    An engineering professor informed the State School Board members that
    she was "an Evangelical Christian" who accepted evolution.

    I've heard this assertion so often, I call it the "I'm a Christian Too
    Proof" of evolution. Let's examine it briefly:

    The fact that someone claims to be a Christian does not prove his/her
    ideas are sound. In short, even if a Christian does believe in
    evolution, that is not an argument for the truth of evolution. It
    proves only that the person claims to be a Christian, and claims to
    believe in evolution. Evolution must stand or fall in science on the
    basis of evidence. Their Christianity must stand or fall on the basis
    of the criteria Jesus established. The claim is irrelevant.

    Nor does such a claim tell you anything about the true compatibility of
    Christianity and evolution. First, the claim that the person is, in
    fact, a Christian must be weighed. You can sit in a garage all day and
    claim you are a car, but regardless of how fervently you claim it, your
    status as a non-car will not change. Furthermore, only Jesus can define
    what a Christian is and he said, "Ye must be born again." Only those
    who are born again by the Spirit of God are Christians in any
    meaningful sense.

    There are many other evidences that not all who claim to be Christians
    are. Jesus said that: "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men
    gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? - MAT 7:16 Wherefore by
    their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me,
    Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth
    the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that
    day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? ... and in thy
    name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I
    never knew you: depart from me ... - Matt 7:20-23 He also said: "By
    this shall ye know them, that they love one another." But the most
    extensive passage is in the prayer of Jesus for unity among believers.
    Central to this prayer is the passage: "Holy Father ... Sanctify them
    through thy truth, thy word is truth." Jesus makes it clear that his
    prayer applies to all followers through all time, and that Jesus wants
    all his followers to be sanctified (set apart) by God's Word. But,
    virtually no "Christian evolutionist" defends his position from God's
    word, simply because it cannot be done. Therefore, you can be certain
    that anyone claiming to be a Christian evolutionist is either immature
    in his walk, or a liar.

    Mutations are clearly consistent with the "curse" the Bible says God
    placed on the entire creation. Paul calls it "the bondage to decay,"
    which he says applies to the entire universe. Regarding adaptation,
    even man routinely builds automatic adaptation devices like the
    thermostat in your house and the Electronic Fuel Injection in your car.
    Thus, God who says His ways are much higher than ours can design
    automatic adaptation devices. Thus, mutations and adaptation are not
    only acceptable to Christianity, but are predicted by it. However,
    nowhere in God's Word can you find a hint of what some call Macro
    Evolution. There isn't one "Christian" evolutionist that can defend his
    stance for evolution on the basis of God's Word. They all do so on the
    basis of what they claim is science. It is my position that a
    "Christian" who believes in "progressive creation" or "macro evolution"
    does so in spite of the evidence of the Bible, and the evidence of

    An even more powerful passage is Revelation 17 in which the behavior,
    nature and destruction of the "harlot, Mystery Babylon" are discussed
    in detail. There are some differences of opinion about who this refers
    to, but nearly every commentator agrees that it refers to the false
    church and that this group will attack (throughout modern history) the
    true church. A more accurate description of "Christian evolutionists"
    is hard to find. They love to call Christians names like
    "fundamentalists," "extreme Biblical literalists," etc. And, wherever
    evolutionists have taken over "evolutionist Christians" have joined
    Hitler, Stalin, etc., in killing Christians. "Drunk with the blood of
    the saints," and rich from compromising ("fornicating") with
    governments, exactly as the Bible describes "Mystery Babylon." Finally,
    it clearly states that Christ's real enemies cooperate with this false
    church, but truly hate it, and eventually destroy it. I have ministered
    to atheist evolutionists for years. They are quite comfortable inviting
    a "Christian Theologian" to debate against creation, but they go to
    coffee with me. It is clear they fear me, but they respect me, and
    despise my opponent, because they know he is a traitor to his professed
    belief. This is clearly prophesied in Revelation 17 to anyone who has
    eyes to see.


    People who announce "I'm a Christian too" in Creation/Evolution
    discussions may be telling you something about their religion, but are
    telling you nothing about Christianity or the issue of whether
    evolution is good science.


    Keith B. Miller
    Research Assistant Professor
    Dept of Geology, Kansas State University
    Manhattan, KS 66506-3201

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