RE: Van Till's Ultimate Gap

From: Dr. Blake Nelson (
Date: Sat Sep 06 2003 - 20:16:10 EDT

  • Next message: Glenn Morton: "RE: Van Till's Ultimate Gap"

    Hi Glenn,

    I am pretty busy right now, so I have to wait to get
    back to you re your replies to my comments on MWH, but
    let me try to make a simple point that may have been
    lost in my series of points before:

    --- Glenn Morton <> wrote:
    > Hi Howard,
    > As I mentioned to Blake, I do need to modify this
    > claim. Reincarnational
    > religions could survive. But I see no way
    > christianity could survive such a
    > view. Everyone is saved, everyone is lost. Doesn't
    > seem real meaningful to
    > do that to Christianity. Remember that objects in
    > identical quantum states,
    > which is what many of these universes would be, are
    > indistinguishable. Thus
    > your comment below might be questioned.

    I do not understand then, 1) what you mean by the
    quantum states are indistinguishable. The whole point
    of MWH is that there are other quantum outcomes, so
    the states are distinguishable -- note, that you have
    not explained, because I believe it impossible to do
    so -- how salvation or damnation is a quantum
    variable; 2) just because they are mathematically
    indistinguishable to us, does that mean they are
    indistinguishable to God? 3) and even assuming
    everything you suggest is true -- and all your selves
    despite some being Wiccan, some being christian, etc.
    are indistinguishable in a quantum sense (and I think
    to the extent the point has any validity, you mean
    that the mathematics currently used to posit the
    different versions are indistinguishable, which seems
    to me just another mathematical artefact like the
    block universe concept, which by your analysis would
    also be a religion killer -- if you want I will
    explain why later), why isn't this akin to the
    lifelong atheist who repents later in life? Who is to
    say that the salvific action of God vis-a-vis one of
    you, when all the infinite "yous" are reconciled are
    not saved by the saving action of Jesus in this
    universe and your response to it? As I said, you
    could just as easily, under the Everett MWH, say that
    everyone is saved, because someone gets it right in
    some universe.

    Now, this certainly does not make anything willy-nilly
    or random -- it seems to me that it even makes the
    idea of all the universe being redeemed through Jesus
    even more accurate, because, inter alia, it eliminates
    the old chestnut that atheists and agnostics like to
    throw out about being able to convert to christianity
    being an accident of birth that has been denied most
    people in history, since everyone does theoretically
    have the opportunity and indeed does become saved
    under the extremely extravagant claims of a maximal
    Everett MWH hypothesis.

    > >2. If there is another universe with sentient,
    > morally-conscious creatures
    > >in it, _my_ identity would not be affected. Even if
    > there were another such
    > >creature that was atom for atom identical to me
    > structurally, it would not
    > >be "me." I have not the slightest concern about
    > there being a duplicate of
    > >Glenn or Howard in any other universe, certainly
    > not for reasons of
    > >confusion about our eternal destinies.
    > If there are universes in identical quantum states,
    > they and your identity
    > are indistinguishable. Since we have a very poor
    > idea of what consciousness
    > is, how it arises, or even what its nature is, we
    > couldn't say we aren't
    > 'living' in both universes, up till the time of the
    > splitting of the
    > universes suggested by Everett which then makes both
    > universes
    > distinguishable..

    Please explain to me how your being a Wiccan and your
    being a Christian can be identical quantum states.

    Please also explain to me how God cannot distinguish
    between the different yous.

    Please also explain if all of you are really you and
    consciousness just makes you think there is one you
    why all of you, in that sense, are not saved if one of
    you are saved? I think christian dogma is pretty
    clear that just becuase you continue to sin after you
    have been saved doesn't mean you are no longer saved
    -- so if other yous that are really you continue to
    sin, are you positing a new doctrine of double limited
    atonement that atonement doesn't apply to you if you
    are not elect in all possible universes? This is
    theologically (and scientifically) rather absurd given
    the piling of what ifs and what seem to me logically
    inconsistent conditions on the hypothesis.

    I look forward to reading your replies to my messages
    when I have some time to give at least a
    semi-thoughtful response!

    Do you Yahoo!?
    Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software

    This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.4 : Sat Sep 06 2003 - 20:18:44 EDT