From: Michael Roberts (firstname.lastname@example.org)
Date: Sun Jun 08 2003 - 08:16:07 EDT
I would say that Howard's response was a model of Christian gentility on
what can only be described as garbage of the worst sort.
I would suggest that Vernon begins to study sciences like geology and see
what the conclusions are from them rather than dismissing them and
persisting with his numerology and creationist fairytales
I think it best if we simply switch on our delete buttons
----- Original Message -----
From: "Vernon Jenkins" <email@example.com>
To: "Howard J. Van Till" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: The forgotten verses
> I am surprised by the ferocity of your diatribe - yet, there is a sense in
> which I am also encouraged by it. What you dismissively refer to as an
> 'exercise in futility' is hardly that - as you would know had you studied
> the evidence and made the logical inferences. And whether it will 'die a
> quiet and peaceful death' is, I suggest, highly unlikely; accordingly, it
> might be well for you to consider whether your RFEP is able to sit
> comfortably with these new facts.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Howard J. Van Till" <email@example.com>
> To: "Vernon Jenkins" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> Cc: <email@example.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2003 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: The forgotten verses
> > >From: "Vernon Jenkins" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
> > The thinking part of me says to let this whole exercise in futility die
> > peaceful and quiet death. The rest of me, however, finds it difficult to
> > resist one more comment.
> > > I had hoped you would consider it important that we factored in to our
> > > deliberations vis-a-vis how things began what the Scriptures have to
> > > about the nature of those who so deliberate.
> > If the powers of human perception and deliberation are as corrupt and
> > distorted as your usual rhetoric implies, then "surely you must agree"
> > use one of your favorite rhetorical devices) that this corruption and
> > distortion applies to your own perception and deliberations regarding
> > numbers that you declare to be a significant indicator of the character
> > the biblical text.
> > > Regarding the numbers: I see them as fulfilling a complementary role
> > > confirming the text to be divinely-inspired -....
> > The numbers to which you give so much your attention are declared (by
> > after the fact) to be significant on the basis of nothing other than
> > own individual judgment (human judgment that you repeatedly disparage as
> > untrustworthy). Your whole approach is a-theoretic. You have no basis
> > any independent theory to establish, "If the text is divinely inspired,
> > it will generate numerical qualities of the following sort....." You
> > certain numbers to be significant only after you sift through the vast
> > sandpile of numbers that can be generated from any text. You dispense
> > numerous assertions of the form, "...surely you must agree...." without
> > faintest semblance of warrant other than your own preconception of the
> > character and intentions of God. How can this be anything but manifest
> > hubris?
> > > and that, surely, can be no bad thing.
> > Surely? Bunk! On the contrary, I see the focus on numbers as a harmful
> > distraction from focusing on the life-enhancing presence of the Sacred.
> > Indeed, I believe the attention given to numbers here serves only to
> > the bibliolatry that infects millions of contemporary Christians --
> > especially in North America -- for whom the strident defense of humanly
> > crafted statements about the biblical text seems far more important than
> > living of a life enriched by the insights of the biblical text into the
> > authentic human experience of Gods presence.
> > > Indeed, I believe the numbers serve to enhance the ability of the
> > > text to stimulate awe and worship.
> > For your sake, Vernon, I hope that you find this to be true of your own
> > experience. I do not find it so in my experience. I see it as the kind
> > enterprise that opens the door to warranted ridicule of religious
> > Howard Van Till
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