RE: The forgotten verses

From: Debbie Mann (deborahjmann@insightbb.com)
Date: Sat May 31 2003 - 10:08:00 EDT

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    Tough Verse:

    Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of
    things not seen.

    It is easier to believe in a black and white world and a black and white
    Bible than in the 1 million color plus world we live in.

    With Hollywood and virtual reality, surely, everyone can see the possibility
    that God could have made the world with any combination of evidences that He
    chose. This could be as elaborate a combination of real and virtual as the
    people on the holodeck of Star Trek. The fact that the physical laws work in
    such a way that I am writing on this computer and you will all see my
    response, if you choose, within minutes of when I send it testifies to a
    coherence of design.

    The purpose of our journey here, I believe, is more than salvation. It is
    also for us to learn to truly love and trust God and to learn to walk in
    love. The YEC's and many other Christians get so het up on - I hesitate to
    use 'details', but certainly points other than the main ones- that
    frequently they forget all about the 'love' thing in consternation over
    differences on other points.

    I don't believe that the main issue is the disagreement at all - but the
    closing out of love. God could very well make a young rock look old. I'm not
    challenged by people believing that. If they tell me I have to believe it,
    or particularly that I have to believe it to be a Christian - then that's
    when I start forgetting parts of Luke 10:27.

    Agreeing with everyone on everything is boring. Agreeing with noone on
    anything is miserable. Moderation plagues us again.

    -----Original Message-----
    From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
    Behalf Of Michael Roberts
    Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 4:46 AM
    To: Vernon Jenkins
    Cc: asa@calvin.edu
    Subject: Re: The forgotten verses

    >
    > This verbal exchange began as a result of your treating us to some typical
    > hyperbole, viz "What I am saying is that YEC and any fundamentalist
    nonsense
    > creates a severe problem to both the head and the heart of any Christian
    > striving to follow Christ." (23.05) -
    > having earlier said, "If I were presented with the choice of YEC or
    atheism
    > I would choose the latter as being more in the spirit of Jesus.", and " If
    > the choice was YEC and any form of liberal Christianity I would choose the
    > latter for being closer to the teachings of the Bible."

    This was not hyperbole but the way things are. I am required by Jesus to
    love God with all my mind, That i cannot do if I adopt YEC nonsense and
    fabrications, hence if I were given the false choice, that is the way I
    would go.

    >
    > I can well understand why you would now wish to disengage, but before
    doing
    > that perhaps you would now properly address the matter which formed the
    > greater part of my recent posting, viz the essential nature of man - as it
    > is presented in the Scriptures (eg Gn.8:21, Ps.2:1-3, Jer.17:9, Jn.2:25,
    > Ro.3:10,23) - and how this might impact on the C/E debate.

    I am aware of the falleness of man and I dont see what has got to do with
    it, except to say any Christian can still be wrong in what they propound.

    As a Christian
    > minister of long standing you will of course be aware of these
    > 'fundamentalist' Bible teachings - which, incidentally, appear to be
    > adequately confirmed by what we know of ourselves and others. However,
    > perhaps you would like to give us your views.
    You complain of the offensive of others, see to yourself.

    >
    > My own feeling is that the debate cannot be properly and meaningfully
    > engaged until this fundamental human flaw is factored in; for surely, if
    > there is doubt about his being a reliable witness in respect of ultimate
    > origins, then it should be declared - wouldn't you agree?
    Who is the "his"?

    According to the
    > Bible, both Creation and Flood were supernatural events; why then should
    we
    > be expected to believe those who tell us that only natural forces were
    > involved?
    Creation is the initial and continuing act of God. The Bible does not say
    the flood was supernatural.
    >
    > And one further question that has always intrigued me: when you assembled
    > your _condensed_ version of the Bible, how did you decide which verses to
    > leave out?
    I get fed up with the superspirituality and offensiveness of people like you
    who assume that those who dont support your silly myths of numerology and
    YEC have rejected the Bible.

     I have tried to answer your questions but you simply have a closed mind and
    heart

    M



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