Re: Sin?

From: Sondra Brasile (sbrasile@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed May 28 2003 - 12:25:44 EDT

  • Next message: RFaussette@aol.com: "Re: Do non-U.S. Christians say "God Bless America?""

    Debbie,

    I would like to know the difference between a person whose sexual appetite
    steers them toward their same sex and a person whose sexual appetite steers
    them toward children, and if you feel the same way toward a pedophile as you
    do a homosexual. Both are sexual preference, both are sin and both can be
    overcome through repentance and diligence.

    I think it was before you were a member of the list, but I shared some
    personal understanding I have of this vice (homosexuality), I don't really
    want to continue to share it again and again since I have a fear that it may
    come back to haunt me someday as it is. I do not believe it is out of a
    persons control any more than my brother-in-law's alcohol and crack
    addiction is out of his control, I will not accept his vices and will not OK
    his drug use and allow him to come into my house hopped up on drugs and
    alcohol (I will not accept him under those circumstances). If I believed he
    had repented (which is a 180 degree turn) and quit for good, I would welcome
    him with open arms. However the pedophile is a different story altogether,
    his appetites are just too dangerous to trust his word that he's been
    "cured" and my children are much too valuable to risk based on any of his
    supposed "reforms" and I don't give a rat's butt who I offend.

    When I found out my other brother-in-law was a pedophile he was suddenly NOT
    welcome in my home anymore for the safety of my 4 children (the victim's
    mother, my best friend, decided not to formally press charges to avoid
    dragging her child through court, that was her choice). Who is to say that
    either of my brother-in-law's appetites are right or wrong (who am I to
    judge?)? How do we gauge them, by who they hurt? Am I supposed to treat the
    pedophile and the drug addict like you say you would treat your homosexual
    friends? Why the variance, if any? For some reason God created my husband
    with a chronic case of adultery, that is his vice it is his weakness, am I
    supposed to view it the same way? He claimed he had no control over it, he
    blamed them, he even blamed ME! It was the women's fault! He was a victim!
    They were satan, they seduced him, they "tricked him". Oh honey, I heard it
    all. The fact of the matter is, this is his "vice" and if he doesn't fight
    it now for the rest of his life he will lose me and everything he holds
    dear. I'm not going to sympathize with him and agree that "he can't help
    it", he CAN help it, we can ALL help it (whatever our vice is). My dad's is
    overeating (he's literally killing himself via food); tell HIM he can help
    it, and with a huge mouthful of food he'll spit "I HAVE to eat, don't I?"

    If I have homosexual appetites am I to indulge in them because "I can't help
    it", therefore it's OK? Where do we draw the line and is there EVEN a line?
    I get convicted of "fantasizing" about commiting my vice, yet I don't even
    actually commit it, but I know that sin is hatched in the mind and Jesus
    said if you lust after a woman you commit the sin (in your mind) and even
    that is just as bad. The same goes for heterosexual, homosexual, pedophile,
    necrophile,... you name it even "thinking" about it is wrong.

    I KNOW it can be overcome, but just like drug addiction, sexual addiction,
    overeating, alcoholism, etc... it takes A. Accepting the fact that it IS a
    problem (which society and even the church, is going the opposite direction
    on) B. Accept the fact that you *have* (are guilty of) the problem (refer to
    A.) and C. Do what it takes (including abstain) to overcome the problem.
    People have been justifying sin since the dawn of time and trying to even go
    as far a saying it "isn't sin". I'm not saying it is a worse sin than lying
    or breaking the speed limit, but isn't that the reason FOR the law, to give
    us an idea of what sin IS? It's the line in the sand, the ideal, all God
    asks for is for us to call right, right and wrong, wrong. It's all this
    justification he cannot stand because then you're dictating to HIM what his
    rules are, could you imagine if your kids began telling *you* what's going
    to happen in *your* house? You'd box their ears (metaphorically, if you were
    a *good* parent).

    I wouldn't treat anyone who's harmless in a hostile or hateful way, no
    matter what his or her "vice" is, but I won't lie or pretend it's AOK and
    that the person is safe in his salvation if he continues unchecked and
    unwilling to submit to God's will. But on the other hand, if a person
    acknowledges his sin and "falls off the wagon" once in a while all they need
    to do is ask God for forgiveness and he is faithful to forgive them, right?
    If they profess that they aren't even sinning and they are, then where is
    their forgiveness? Doesn't the Holy Spirit judge the "thoughts and
    intentions" of men? God knows if we *intend* to do the right thing and we
    fail, he's not stupid, he expects it and forgives it BUT if we deny what is
    right and pride makes us stiffnecked and self-righteous, then the law is
    fully upon us, if we want to live by grace then we live by grace, but if we
    want to claim we know the law then God will require it of us.

    If I err it is to the side of caution, we're a bunch of immature spoiled
    brats when it comes to what is "wrong", we try to convince God that
    something he said really isn't what he meant, and yada yada, blah, blah,
    blah! My kids do that to me all the time, it enfuriates me, they're all
    gonna' have to go to law school 'cause they can beat a dead horse until
    you'd swear it should get up and run at a full gallop.

    If I have to, I guess I can air my dirty laundry AGAIN to prove the point,
    but I sure hope it's not necessary. I'd LOVE for somebody to convince me
    that my vice isn't wrong it would make life SO much easier.

    Sincerely,

    Sondra Brasile

    >From: "Debbie Mann" <deborahjmann@insightbb.com>
    >To: "Asa" <asa@calvin.edu>
    >Subject: Sin?
    >Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 09:07:27 -0500
    >
    >
    >"At what threshold is someone's appetite one to which a person should not
    > > yield in your opinion?"
    >
    >This stimulated the following:
    >
    >
    >Want a big challenge? Put these verses together in a sermon.
    >
    >ICor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such is common to man, :
    >but God is faithful who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are
    >able....
    >
    >Romans 3:23 All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
    >
    >ICor 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient.
    >
    >and
    >
    >Rom 2:1 takn in light of Romans 1, which includes the classic injuction
    >against homosexuality as well as a scathing list of other sins including
    >gossiping, disobedience to parents, without understanding and other rather
    >all encompassing sins.
    >
    >Therefore you have no excuse or defense or justification, O man, whoever
    >you
    >are who judges and condemns another. ...
    >
    >I personally lost my temper yesterday. Flippin computer ate my work and I
    >couldn't even figure out why or how.
    >
    >It's one thing to discuss whether or not one defines sin as thus and so (or
    >Christian for that matter)- but how do we react to the person who is
    >'living
    >in sin'? Aren't we all at least living with sin?
    >
    >I thank God that my taste goes to large hairy men and I have one sleeping
    >in
    >my bed right now, to whom I am married. I also thank God that when I stuck
    >my foot in my mouth this weekend and chewed on my toes for a bit, my
    >hostess
    >rescued me and graciously continued the conversation such that I did not
    >look a fool. She was the victim of my foot chewing. Was that sin? I didn't
    >do it intentionally. But, I also did not lose my temper intentionally and I
    >am quite sure that that was sin. (I yelled at my poor daughter/assistant,
    >who goes rather dim when she knows I'm angry - which doesn't help matters
    >at
    >all.)
    >
    >So I confessed my sins to God and daughter and I am forgiven. Until the
    >next
    >time. A few days, weeks or months from now - I will probably need to repeat
    >the process.
    >
    >And I find no pleasure in it - no fulfillment of any desires or loneliness
    >or yearning. I don't want unrighteous anger in any way shape or form.
    >
    >I agree that sex outside of marriage, between any two people, is wrong.
    >But,
    >I see no point in drawing any lines - or throwing any stones. There is a
    >line to be drawn in terms of foolishness about personal safety. And we do
    >need to use wisdom in being yoked. (What defines 'yoked'? - another
    >discussion.)Otherwise, the sinner is welcome at my table.
    >
    >-----Original Message-----
    >From: asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu [mailto:asa-owner@lists.calvin.edu]On
    >Behalf Of Michael Roberts
    >Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 4:47 PM
    >To: Walter Hicks; John W Burgeson
    >Cc: RFaussette@aol.com; asa@calvin.edu
    >Subject: Re: Do non-U.S. Christians say "God Bless America?"
    >
    >
    >What about Tillich's mistress? Did T have an option there? Was it wrong?
    >
    >Michael
    >----- Original Message -----
    >From: "Walter Hicks" <wallyshoes@mindspring.com>
    >To: "John W Burgeson" <jwburgeson@juno.com>
    >Cc: <RFaussette@aol.com>; <asa@calvin.edu>
    >Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:24 PM
    >Subject: Re: Do non-U.S. Christians say "God Bless America?"
    >
    >
    > >
    > >
    > > I know how you feel, John, but it certainly is true that color of skin
    >and
    > > sexual "orientation" are not in the same category. Changing skin color
    >is
    > > not an option.
    > >
    > > However, I too know some people who admit to a homosexual inclination
    >but
    > > they resist it and behave according to sexual norms and much of what the
    > > Bible teaches. That is an option.
    > >
    > > At what threshold is someone's appetite one to which a person should not
    > > yield in your opinion?
    > >
    > > Walt
    > >
    > >
    > > John W Burgeson wrote:
    > >
    > > > >>Canadians are often afraid to preach the gospel lest the gays
    > > > protest.>>
    > > >
    > > > Do gay Christians protest? There are many such, you know.
    > > >
    > > > I am personally acquainted with about 8 of them, two of them are in
    > > > seminary studying for the ministry. Yesterday I met one who will
    > > > graduate from Union Seminary next Sunday with a 4.0 average. And she
    >is
    > > > hurting just as much as our brothers and sisters of color hurt in the
    > > > days of Jim Crow.
    > > >
    > > > John Burgeson (Burgy)
    > > >
    > > > www.burgy.50megs.com
    > > >
    > > > ________________________________________________________________
    > > > The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
    > > > Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
    > > > Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
    > >
    > > --
    > > ===================================
    > > Walt Hicks <wallyshoes@mindspring.com>
    > >
    > > In any consistent theory, there must
    > > exist true but not provable statements.
    > > (Godel's Theorem)
    > >
    > > You can only find the truth with logic
    > > If you have already found the truth
    > > without it. (G.K. Chesterton)
    > > ===================================
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
    >
    >

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