From: Sondra Brasile (email@example.com)
Date: Wed May 07 2003 - 10:13:25 EDT
Thanks, you're probably right. It's all so vague and hard to be specific.
English is such a limited language, we have more words for fizzy beverages
than we do for most other concepts.
Too bad I was thinking off the top of my head again. I've made that same
mistake before, about the soul dying not; have you ever gotten something
erroneous stuck in your head and it keeps coming back to haunt you? That's
one of mine. Sorry about that. That's one of the reasons I don't speak a lot
on this list, I don't have the time to do it correctly, or safely (checking
all my references).
I'm thinking the SDA's probably got it "going on" in that area, but I
dissagreed about their belief that the souls in Hell cease to exist, they
burn up and then don't exist anymore. I think it's a perpetual, eternal
torment, just like the perpetual, eternal bliss of Heaven. Anyway that
thinking keeps me on the straight and narrow better than the thought of just
burning up and then ceasing to exist, that wouldn't be nearly as bad. I'm
one that might be willing to chance it. Yeah I'm one of those that the
threat of eternal torment is what dissuades me most of the time. I'm good at
being bad and I enjoy it, living on the edge and all that. BUT the eternal
damnation thing really puts a damper on it, I better stay away from the SDA
theory, eh? ;)
Talk to you later, and thanks for your feedback.
>From: allenroy <firstname.lastname@example.org>
>To: Sondra Brasile <email@example.com>
>Subject: Re: Resurrected Body
>Date: Tue, 06 May 2003 14:33:38 -0700
>Sondra Brasile wrote:
>>Hmmm, that's not how they explained it to me, they said they believe that
>>the Christian's soul never dies but lives on in eternity, but the soul
>>perishes in hell (ceases to exist). This same soul, "sleeps" somewhere
>>until the resurrection, I guess I may have assumed they meant in the body,
>>but the rest I was told by their pastor. Maybe it differs from SDA to SDA?
>I've never heard anything quite like that from any SDA pastor or evangelist
>or in any SDA publication.
>I think that you may have misunderstood the pastor in this way:
>The reverse of what happened in making a soul -- i.e., body +
>breath-of-life = living soul -- is found in Ecclesiastes 12:7 "and the
>dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who
>gave it." --i.e., living soul - spirit = dead body that returns to dust.
>(You know the sayings: "Dust thou art and unto dust you shall return," and
>"Dust to dust, ashes to ashes.") In Ecclesiastes 12:7, the word spirit
>means the breath. It is the "breath-of-life" that God breathed into the
>nostrils of Adam, that returns to God upon death. This "breath-of-life,"
>aka 'spirit,' is not some conscious entity, but simply the life power that
>God gave the body so that man could exist. When that life power goes away,
>man does not exist. That life power remains with God, until the
>resurrection when the body is reconstituted and the breath-of-life (the
>life power) is restored and people -- conscious, living souls -- exist
>This topic is complicated by the fact that the English words "spirit" and
>"soul" have many different meanings and that the several Hebrew words from
>which "spirit" and "soul" are translated also have many different meanings.
> As everyone says, context, context context. Not just the context of a
>phrase, but also sentence, paragraph, book and the complete compilation of
>the Bible must make sense.
>I suspect that the pastor told you that the 'spirit' of Ecclesiastes
>returned to God until the resurrection. But I doubt that he meant that a
>conscious entity went to God and slept there. This may have been something
>you though he said. Rather, he was probably using the words
>"breath-of-life" and "spirit" interchangeably meaning the life force, and
>you may have been thinking "spirit" as the consciousness of man (or woman).
>As I said before, death is "LIKE" sleep in that the dead know nothing until
>the resurrection awakes them from the grave. It is not that disembodied
>souls/spirits really go to sleep.
>>What is your understanding then of the verse that says "the soul dieth
>>not" would it seem to mean that the soul has no end and therefore cannot
>>cease to exist?
>I think you are referring to "their worm dieth not" (There is no such
>phase as "the soul dieth not" or anything similar, in any version of the
>Bible of which I know.)
>Mark 9:47-48 It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye
>than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where
> " `their worm does not die,
> and the fire is not quenched.' NIV
>Mark 9:47-48 : it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with
>one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm
>dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. KJV
>The Greek word for "hell" used here is "Gehenna." Gehenna was the garbage
>and excrement dump for the city of Jerusalem and is used here figuratively
>for the lake of fire that consumes the wicked at the end. I understand that
>the bodies of those executed were also thrown there. The poetic phrase
>"their worm does not die" does not mean that a soul will not die, but
>rather that the worms that eat dead bodies will not be killed. You need a
>dead body for the worms to live on. No dead bodies, no worms. In the same
>way, as long as there is something to burn, no one can quench the fires.
>But, when there is nothing to burn, there is no fire.
>But, do souls die or not? The Bible is clear that souls die.
>Ezekiel 18:4 and 18:20, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die."
>When a soul is understood as defined by Genesis 2:7 and Ecc. 12:7, then it
>makes perfect sense that souls do die.
>"I have been shown that, without Bible history, geology can prove nothing.
>in the earth do give evidence of a state of things differing in many
>respects from the
>present. But the time of their existence, and how long a period these
>things have been in
>the earth, are only to be understood by Bible history. It may be innocent
>beyond Bible history, if our suppositions do not contradict the facts found
>in the sacred
>Scriptures. But when men leave the word of God in regard to the history of
>seek to account for God's creative works upon natural principles, they are
>boundless ocean of uncertainty. Just how God accomplished the work of
>creation in six
>literal days, he has never revealed to mortals. His creative works are just
>incomprehensible as his existence." Ellen Gould Harmon White, 1864
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