Re: Ken Ham

From: Jim Armstrong (
Date: Wed Mar 19 2003 - 15:24:33 EST

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    Good counsel I think, and I've in fact done that. However, that in
    itself does nothing to provide any countercurrent that directly
    addresses the problems outlined and their unfortunate consequences. That
    requires a different of "investment", and in one matter where I agree
    with Rich, it is not in the rather pointless engagement between
    stongly-held fundamentally disparate worldviews. I'm persuaded that
    there are better places to put one's energy, and I'm even working on a
    couple though the terrain is relatively unmapped. Thanks Jan. Jim

    Jan de Koning wrote:

    > At 08:06 PM 18/03/2003 -0700, Jim Armstrong wrote:
    >> I'm sorry, but I have a bit of a problem with this response. I'll
    >> state at the outset that what follows is my perspective, and it's
    >> under construction in this area.
    >> I know some of these folks. My sense is that people abandon
    >> Christianity for one of two reasons: it has just somehow become
    >> irrelevant to them, or it has become aversive to them (something bad
    >> happened, or the expression of Christianity they are associated with
    >> no longer reflects their sense of what Jesus was/is and did/does).
    >> With respect to the latter, there are in our time undeniably strident
    >> Christian voices whose very public utterings are uninformed in some
    >> respects (e.g., science) and/or whose speech and actions are
    >> inconsistent with emulation of the one whose name their bear. Sadly,
    >> these voices contribute materially to the definition of a stereotype
    >> of Christianity that is unattractive, and in the worst case aversive
    >> to many - Christian and non-Christian alike. They also unfortunately
    >> also define to some extent what is off-limits to discuss freely in
    >> the church environment, and even what can be spoken from the pulpit.
    >> When people find themselves feeling that the Christ they know in
    >> their hearts and the freedoms he brings are reflected with
    >> insufficient fidelity in their particular church, some folks just
    >> express their discontent with their feet.
    > True enough. However, even when preachers are untrue to God's Word in
    > creation, that in itself does not give a loss of faith. Also,
    > personally I would look for another community of faith where I could
    > state my belief freely without being subjected to constant criticism
    > and even discipline. Of course, after stating my own faith, for
    > example in a creation in which God used evolution, and still uses
    > evolution.
    >> The life and teachings of Jesus were certainly in part to move our
    >> frame of reference from law to principal, modeled for us (to help us
    >> "get it"!) in the life and actions of Jesus. We find a lot of things
    >> to do in the cause of Christ, but I am reminded of a New Testament
    >> passage that reads, "And the King shall answer and say unto them,
    >> Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the
    >> least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me." In the Old
    >> Testament, "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth
    >> the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to
    >> walk humbly with thy God?" Alas we seem to put a lot of energy into
    >> other stuff - with the best of intentions - but achieving a less than
    >> optimal expression of Christ's residual presence - and mission - on
    >> this small planet.
    > True. However, scientists of all kinds are God's creatures as well.
    > Many of them know God's creation better than many preachers.
    > Consequently, I would go to where I could worship and confess my faith
    > in Christ's death for me, without being constantly harassed about how
    > I see God speaking in nature, (usually done by people who have no idea
    > where they are talking about.)
    > Jan de Koning

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