RE: David Livingstone's take on geology and creation

From: Glenn Morton (
Date: Thu Jan 30 2003 - 16:01:25 EST

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    Michael wrote:
    >Glenn always remeber that YECs make more noise than others and are
    noticeable because of their absurdity so we always think there are more than
    there are.
    >Even Mortenson agrees with me that YEC were a minority in the early 19Cent
    and declined by 1855.

    I have absolutely no doubt that the visible publishing people were not YEC.
    Indeed, I would go so far as to say that it was rare for a YEC to get
    published unless he published it. But like the church today, most clergyin
    the US aren't YEC, yet a large chunk of their parishoners are. Otherwise
    how does one explain the polls in the US where nearly 50% of the people
    think man was created in his present form within the past 10,000 years? I
    bet you can't find anywhere near that percentage of thologians who believe
    that. This first poll refers to the 1982 gallup poll.

     "Johnson notes that in a Gallup poll, 44 percent of the
    respondents agree that "God created man pretty much in his
    present form at one time within the last 10,000 years." He
    contrasts this 44 percent with the mere 9 percent who believe in
    a 'naturalistic evolutionary process not guided by God,' and goes
    on to say that 'the philosophy [sic] of the 9 percent is now to
    be taught in the schools as unchallengeable truth'..." ~ Thomas
    H. Jukes., "Responses to Phillip Johnson", First Things, October
    1990, p. 23

    A repolling later seems to indicate that they are winning:

     "The appearance of that story coincided with the release
     of a new Gallup poll, reporting on the state of American
    opinion regarding evolution and creation. According to this
    survey, approximately 47 percent of Americans can be described
    as creationists, in that they believe that God created mankind
    in pretty much our present form sometime within the last 10,000
    years. ( The wording of the question did not rule out a long
    period of animal evolution before the appearance of man,
    however.) Another 40 percent agreed with the following
    statement: 'Man has developed over millions of years from less
    advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, including
    man's creation.' Only 9 percent of the sample said that they
    accepted the naturalistic view of evolution, which in Gallup's
    wording was that man has developed over millions of years from
    less advanced forms of life, with God having no part in this
    process." ~ Phillip Johnson, "Creator or Blind Watchmaker?"
    First Things, Jan. 1993, pp 8-14, p. 8

    And the 1997 poll puts it back to 44 percent,

    "Some press reports found public support for the Kansas decision, citing
    a 1997 Gallup Poll in which 44 percent of those questioned agreed with
    the statement, 'God created human beings pretty much in their present
    form within the last 10,000 years or so.'" David Brown, "Creation Debate
    Evolves into Politics," AAPG Explorer, Jan. 2000, pp. 20-22, p. 20

    On March 9, 2000, Zogby International released the results
    of an
    American Values Poll which asked the question:
    "Please tell me to what degree you agree or disagree with
    following statement: Both theories, evolution and
    creationism, should be taught equally in public schools. Do you strongly
    somewhat agree, somewhat disagree, strongly disagree, or not sure?"

    In the February nationwide poll of 1,028 adults
    38.9% strongly agreed
    24.8% somewhat agreed
    11.1% somewhat disagree
    23% strongly disagreed
     2.3% not sure

    This poll can be found at

    March 5, 2001
    Substantial Numbers of Americans Continue to Doubt
    Evolution as Explanation for Origin of Humans
    Some Americans appear uncertain as to meaning of terms, however
    by Deborah Jordan Brooks
    ...Most recently, in Gallupís February 19-21 poll, 45% of respondents chose
    "God created human beings pretty much in their present form at one time
    within the last 10,000 years or so," the statement that most closely
    describes biblical creationism. A slightly larger percentage, almost half,
    chose one of the two evolution-oriented statements: 37% selected "Human
    beings have developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of
    life, but God guided this process" and 12% chose "Human beings have
    developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God
    had no part in this process."
    The public has not notably changed its opinion on this question since Gallup
    started asking it in 1982."

    Do you think that 45% of the American clergy hold this view? I don't. My
    whole point last year and now is that while the clergy very well may have
    been 99% old-earth, I doubt very seriously that the laity was ever that
    much. Given that the 45% in the above polls are probably the most likely
    people to be in church on Sunday, I would suggest that the percentage of
    YECs in the pews is 75%. Don't you know that they don't believe the preacher
    anyway? And I would point out that 99% of what the historian sees is the
    published material of the *clergy* rather than the un-educated laity who
    doesn't publish didly. This bias is just like we see in archaeology, where
    80% of a modern hunter's technology is made from perishable materials and
    only 20% are stone tools yet the archaeologists finds 95% stone tools and
    only 5% perishable tools. And then he figures that the ancient hunters
    didn't use perishable materials! That is what I think the logic is like

    We know that those with less education are more likely to be YECs. Ask
    yourself this. If in this very highly educated society, much more educated
    than Victorian England I can assure you, if 45% can hold to a recent
    creation of man today why were the uneducated people in Victorian churches
    more knowledgeable about science than their modern highly educated
    counterparts? That simply doesn't make any sense to me.


    for lots of creation/evolution information
    personal stories of struggle

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